Wanted HMV 202 Internal Horn

Wanted HMV 202 Internal Horn and front grill. (Any chance)!

TONY TONY TONY!!
I dont like your chances mate. I've seen empty cabinets, motors and even once- the smaller 163 horns for sale before, but never a grille or large sized horn.
I've got a 202, and could trace out the grille patern and measurements etc and post them to you so you can make up a new grille. I actually think you'll have more chance of finding a horn than an original grille. Still, you never know you luck!

Hi Shane!

Boy, you do get around!

Tony, lucky for me too, I ,like Shane, have a complete 202 and reckon that is probably the only way to get the horn!

I've seen a 193/194 horn on Ebay.com sell for in excess of $3000 - and that's in a country where generally a lot of collectors fail to recognise the superiority of the British machines over the Victrola Orthophonics.....Shane knows what I mean

Shane,
I hope you receive this message as it is such a long time since your reply.
Firstly I couldn't find this message board after I wrote my first message.
Just found it again the other day.
Thanks so much for the offer to make a copy of the grill for me.
I have a friend that has a 194 and the grills look to be the same in proportion to the cabinet. The 194 will just be a little smaller than the 202 would this be correct. I was planning to take a picture of the 194 and enlarging it on the computer and then get it printed out.
What is the chance of finding a really rough 202 as apart from the horn and grill this machine is in almost mint condition even came with the hand book but no key.
It is such a shame to see what has happened to this machine and I am determined to bring it back to life again.
There must be a horn lying around somewhere.
All the best,
Tony

Hi Tony,

Here's a pic of my grille.



The grille is the same design as the 193, which is an oak machine, but the 194 is a mahogany cabinet, and the grille should be a kind of criss-cross design, like the mahogany 203.

I still think your chances of finding an original grille would be slim to none.
Unfortunately, those that got trashed years ago where usually converted to cocktail cabinets, and the grille would most likely end up in the dump.
I've heard rumours that some clever people during the 50's & 60's would use the horns with electric speakers for better sound & volume, but whether that's true, I don't know. Hopefully it is, as that might bring more hope that a large horn will turn up oneday.
I can't actually remember if the empty cabinet that was for sale had the grille or not?? Steve might have a better memory than me.
I'm not sure either how often the keys turn up. I've got one, but it's from a different model. Steve also has one that is original to his machine, but I think it's a later style key that became common on all the models, including the early radiograms. Another guy we know has a 202 with a key that matches the eschutcheon. I think I've got a picture of it, so I'll have a look & post it later. At least you'll know what to look for then.
Do you know which motor your 202 had/has? They came with either a 4 spring motor, or a 2 spring oil-bath motor, which requires oil to be hand pumped through the motor.

I'd kill for a copy of your manual I've never even seen what the cover looks like, and don't think I know anyone who has one with their machine.

As for the grille, my offer still stands. Even if you just want some measurements to double check the proportions of the copy you make, just let me know.

Shane.

Ok- found it.



The first key shown is the later style which (I think) Steve has, and the second is the earlier style which matches the machine.

Hope this helps.

BTW: I'm not sure what your chances would be of even finding a trashed but complete 202 to take parts from. I've never seen or heard of one in that condition, but because they're a fairly rare & very desirerable machine, I think you'd still be looking at many thousands of dollars for one that was a wreck.
You never know what's going to turn up though, so don't give up all hope. You'll just have to keep a constant eye on ebay etc, and with luck something will turn up eventually.

Hello,

Here's what I did once.
I looked for an 8-9 victrola in the usa. Just as ebay item 350042607267.
They come around once in a while. I asked the seller to send me the metal horn only.
Then I brought it to a handy welder who fitted the horn for my empty 202HMV.
Geuss what...it played wonderfull with super bass and an even more direct sound than an original HMV reentrant horn. The grill I had made by a local handy man. It was a fantastic replica.
The grillcloth can be bought at http://www.grillecloth.com
If you do ,you'll have a perfect sounding orthophonic gramophone for a fraction of the normal price!
Get the cabinet and grill spray painted with non-glossy varnish...then hand polish it with brasscleaner and/or carpolish...It gets the beautiful old look that way!
(don't tell anyone but I sold mine to a Korean collector for 15000 euro )
He loved it !!!

good luck with yours...

Bert

Actually Bert, I had a similar thought earlier today. I was thinking of a smaller HMV re-entrant horn though. As Steve said earlier though, these still seem to bring huge prices on the rare occasions they show up.
I'd forgoten all about the Victor 8-9! I think this was the only Victor Ortho model that used a metal rather than ply/wood horn, and are still quite easy to find. The 8-9 would probably be the cheapest way to get an ortho horn, and with alterations, would still give a pretty good sound, and make the 202 usable until the right horn came along. Even with shipping from the USA, it would probably cost less than a HMV 163.

The 8-9 has a huge metal horn and has an impressive sound-reproduction.
Come to think of it, my empty cabinet was an HMV203 mahogany.So do not follow my advise on having it varnish sprayed since oak doesn't need al that. The grill must be even easier to reproduce in oak.
bert
belgium

Shane
Thanks very much for your reply and it is fantastic for me to get back in touch.
Thanks for posting the picture of your 202 and it looks fantastic.
The first thing I noticed was that it had to lid stays as mine only has one stay on the left hand side.
Good to see the pictures of the keys I have a key for a HMV 163 but haven't picked it up yet so not sure what it looks like.
The motor in this 202 is a 2 spring motor I will try and post some pictures of it.
Is there any problem in doing this!! I will also have to work out how to load some pictures as I would really like everyone to see why I am so determined to find at least a horn for this machine and then get a grill made as the rest is truly in fantastic condition.
Also I have put you wrong when I said I had a instruction manual for the 202.
This is the original manual that was sold with this machine but having a good look at it, it seems to be a manual that must of been given out with this 202 but covers the 163,193,194,202,203.
There is a small card that was also with this machine and it has written on it how to work the automatic brake No3 I hope that this is for this machine.
I do know a good part of its history and I will write that out as it is also interesting I can also tell you why the horn and grill is missing from this machine.

Also believe it or not I walked into a shop and saw from a good distance another machine for sale as I walked closer and closer my heart was fair thumping I reached out and opened the gramophone doors and found this one was only the cabinet it had been guttered out and used as a cocktail cabinet. What a shame. I did trace down the owners but they also bought it as a cocktail cabinet.
Over the last 10 years I have came across 3 empty cases plus the one I have.
Thanks for the other interest in this machine. I will also check out the grill cloth.
All the very best,
Tony

Here's what I did once.
I looked for an 8-9 victrola in the usa. Just as ebay item 350042607267.
They come around once in a while. I asked the seller to send me the metal horn only.
Then I brought it to a handy welder who fitted the horn for my empty 202HMV.
Geuss what...it played wonderfull with super bass and an even more direct sound than an original HMV reentrant horn. The grill I had made by a local handy man. It was a fantastic replica.
The grillcloth can be bought at http://www.grillecloth.com
If you do ,you'll have a perfect sounding orthophonic gramophone for a fraction of the normal price!
Get the cabinet and grill spray painted with non-glossy varnish...then hand polish it with brasscleaner and/or carpolish...It gets the beautiful old look that way!
(don't tell anyone but I sold mine to a Korean collector for 15000 euro )
He loved it !!!

Boy, remind me to never buy a 202 off you! LOL!

Steve! Don't run away I can't remember about the single lid stay

Don't quote me on this Tony, but I think (pretty sure) the earliest models only had the one lid stay (or was it the last?)
I do know the early ones will have a round gold transfer/decal on the motorboard, which states the model number, and this was later replaced by a cream disc under the used needle cup.
If yours is an early model, it should have the 4 spring (2 big barrels) motor no.34, and later the no.52 oilbath motor was used, which is a fully enclosed motor because it sits in a pool of oil Theres also 2 different set-ups for the motorboards, depending on the motor & age from what we've worked out.

You're very lucky to have seen so many empty cabinets over there. I'd love to find one here, and turn it into a matching record cabinet. It sounds like NZ must have had a few dumped there the same as here, after 1931, when UK HMV decided to get rid of existing stock at half price.

Your manual still sounds great. It probably was supplied with every re-entrant model, but I still have never seen one, and don't know anyone that has. They're probably quite rare.

I'd love to see some px of your machine too.
I use imageshack for mine. It's free & pretty easy to use. You just upload the images there, and copy the link they give you onto your post here.

Shane,
Thanks for that, I am trying to up load some pictures.
Shane Is there any way I can make direct contact with you and send more pictures directly to you.
Do you have any way of getting a cabinet sent over to Aussie as I have pictures of the other 202 as well.
Will work at up loading these pictures.
All the best,
Tony

Hi Tony,

My email is gramophoneshane@

Shane

You are correct about the lid stays - the single stay is the earlier machine. When they intr'd the oil-bath, they also upgraded the machines with at least 2 other differences: the horn became a bit longer by virtue of a "U bend" added just below the tone-arm connection before it joins the main body of the horn and secondly they added a twin-cam sprung lid (maybe the single lid stay was deemed to be inadequate due to the weight of the lid?)

I also have that brochure (in fact I have 2, one for oil-bath the other for no. 34 motors etc) but Shane, they are NOT 202 specific as Tony has already said.

Can I just say here and now, that I am not in favour of cannibalised machines. A 202 is a 202 with a horn designed for it. An 8-9 horn does not suddenly make it a 202 again! I also think the attitude that "don't tell anyone but......." is deplorable. That is nothing short of ripping the guy off. Plain and simple. It is not a private joke that we can all share in the buyers ignorance. I think it is very sad and brings this hobby down to gutter level. And to proudly boast about it on an international open forum is even more recklessly stupid. That is, of course, if the story is completely 100% true which I seriously would question. Why? Well, if i've seen one Korean dealer / collector buying a 202, I've probably seen 10! The one simple litmus test for a re-entrant is to run your finger along the central horizontal bend in the horn just behind the grille cloth. I doubt any other horn would be capable of being manipulated so that it appears to be identical to the HMV? All the buyers I've seen run their fingers along the centre to check that there is even a horn inside!!!

Steve