help for a newbie? Edison Gem Identification

i've been trying to find out more about a Thomas Edison GEM phonograph that i have, but i'm a bit confused. all the websites i've visited say the GEM was "birthed" in 1899, but the last patent date on this one is 1898. i aslo read somewhere that the company that made them went bust, but started up again after a few years. is this true? and if so how do i find out if this machine was made before or after the company went bust?
the first patent date is May 8th 1888, the last is May 31st 1898. serial number is G84361.
any info would be greatly appreciated. i'd add a pic but not sure how to do it.

Can't help you on anything specific to the machine, however can clue you in on "Patent date" info.
The date(s) shown do not necessarily indicate the date of that model. They can cover parts of it that may or may not have been used on earlier models. Same is true for Copyright dates. Hope that helps-- Ron Rich

thanks for the info Ron, though i must admit to still being a bit confused. why, if the machine was made in 1899 onwards would it not have an 1899 patent on it? i've seen pics on the net of these things that have 1899 to 1906 or something. i just find it a bit wierd to have something dated a year before it was supposedly first made. maybe it was "patent pending" but the serial number would suggest that 80-odd thousand had already been made by that date. did they patent every individual part? i read somewhere that they stole some ideas? i admit to having no clue at all about these things, this machine i have is the first i've ever seen and to be honest, i found it. i work next door to a rubbish tip and it caught my eye as i walked past. i love "old stuff" and i want to find out as much as i can about this machine so i can answer all the questions i get about it.

You can be granted a Patent at any time--if you use it then, later, or at all, the Patent Office could care less.
Patents cover ideas for the way things work--I'm sure that there are old Patents for the keyboard I'm typing on--and they could indicate that on this computer, if they wanted to retain rights-(I'm not sure how long a time frame they are good for, today). Ron Rich

As you can see, I added a few words to the post's topic so it will stand out. If you'd like, I can move this entire thread to the Phonographs/Gramophones section of this forum, where more collectors interested in this specific type of machine may see it.
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I was able to find some information about the various Gem models:

THE EDISON GEM PHONOGRAPH WAS INTRODUCED IN FEBRUARY 1899 TO COMPETE WITH THE COLUMBIA "EAGLE". EARLY MACHINES ARE KEY WIND AND CASELESS. THE NICKEL IDENTIFICATION TAG AND SPEED ADJUSTMENT KNOB IS LOCATED ON THE FRONT OF THE MACHINE. IN 1901 A LID WAS ADDED TO THE GEM AND A HORN AND HORN CRANE COULD BE ADDED FOR AN ADDITIONAL $7.50. THE MACHINE REMAINED KEY WIND UNTIL THE MODEL "B" WAS INTRODUCED IN 1905. AT THAT TIME A NON-REMOVABLE CRANK WAS ADDED. WITH THE INTRODUCTION OF THE 4 MINUTE RECORDS MANY MACHINES WERE RETROFITTED WITH 2-4 MINUTE ADAPTORS AND A MODEL "H" OR "K" REPRODUCER WAS ADDED. IN OCTOBER OF 1909 THE MODEL "D" WAS INTRODUCED. IT IS SUPPLIED WITH A MORE POWERFUL MAINSPRING AND WAS DESIGNED TO PLAY BOTH 2 AND 4 MINUTE RECORDS THUS BEING DESIGNATED THE "COMBINATION GEM". INSTEAD OF THE "GEM" DECAL THE DECAL ON THE "D" IS AN "EDISON" SCRIPT DECAL. THE MODEL "E" WAS THE FINAL MODEL "GEM " PHONOGRAPH TO BE MANUFACTURED. IT DIFFERS FROM THE "D" BY HAVING A LARGE CARRIAGE REPRODUCER CARRIER ARM THAT IS SET ON THE SIDE POSITION TO ACCOMODATE THE MODEL "N" REPRODUCER. PRODUCTION OF THE GEM CEASED IN 1914.
From: http://www.pandlantiques.com/gemmodeld.html
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domo wrote:. i'd add a pic but not sure how to do it.

TO POST AN IMAGE ON THIS FORUM THAT IS HOSTED ON ANOTHER SITE:

In order to post an image on an internet forum or message board, your image should be "hosted" on an internet web site, and assigned a "URL" or web address starting with "HTTP" and ending with the image's "file extension," such as "JPG," "GIF," BMP," etc. There are a number of sites that offer free image hosting. I use Imageshack -- http://imageshack.us/

Follow the instructions on the hosting site's screen. (USE the "BROWSE" button on the site to locate your image on your computer, and go from there.)

After your image is hosted, you will see a screen with a number of options. Toward the bottom of the list, you will see your image's new URL -- again, starting with HTTP and ending with JPG, or whatever. Highlight this, and copy and paste it into your browser's "address bar" and press the Enter Key on your keyboard to see the image itself in it's own screen. It's a good idea to "bookmark" this page, or ad it to your "Favorites," depending on the browser software you use -- Internet Explorer, Netscape, Mozilla, etc.

Now that you've done this, all you have to do is compose your message on this board, and when you come to the place where you want the image to appear, click once on the IMG button. A set of brackets will appear on the screen -- [img]. Paste your image's new URL right after that--with no spaces in between the bracket and the URL--and then click the IMG button again. You will see something like this --

[img]http/:myimage'sURL.jpg[/img]

Finish composing your message, and click on the PREVIEW button below to verify that your image displays correctly.

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Since you are a member of Phonoland, you also have the option of hosting your image right on this site, bypassing the use of other hosting sites such as ImageShack, Photobucket, etc.

The first thing to do is to save the image on your own PC. The best format to use is JPG. Please make note of the folder in which your image is saved--you will need to know that. A common location for storing images is in the "My Documents" or "Documents" folder--for MS Windows users.

The next thing is to type your message as you normally would. Then, when you are ready to insert your image, look directly below the box where you are typing. You should see a small tab that says "Upload Attachment." Click on that tab, and then click on the Browse button. A new (pop-up type) screen will appear that will list your main files and folders.

Look for the folder where you have stored your image and click on that, then click on the image, itself, to highlight it.

Once the image is highlighted, click on the Open button. The screen showing your folders will then disappear, and the "location" of the image you selected will appear in the small text box next to the Browse button.

Click on the "Add the file" button to download your image to this site. This may take a few seconds, depending on the size of the photo or image file.

The final step is to click on the "Place inline" button. (The image's new URL will appear in the brackets -- [attachment] new image [/attachment] ) When you click on the "Preview" or "Submit" button, the image should appear in your post.

thanks for the info, going off that i'd say it was between 1901 and 1905 as it has got a case, or whats left of it and i think it is a key wind one as there is no crank handle on it. though it does still puzzle me as to why they'd go to the trouble of putting 16 dates on it but not the current one.
i think the pics i'm trying to put up are to big, i'll resize them and try again later.

joe, feel free to move the thread to where you think is best. thankyou

domo wrote:...though it does still puzzle me as to why they'd go to the trouble of putting 16 dates on it but not the current one....

There may have been a lag between when the patent was applied for, and when it was granted. Oftentimes, this could be several years, depending on the number of claims made during the approval process.

During the early years of the phonograph industry, patent related litigation was the rule of thumb, and this kept most companies (new-comers) out of the industry until the teens, when the key patents held by Edison, Victor and Columbia began to expire. This also explains why so many patent numbers appear on the various manufacturers' products. They more or less served as a warning to those who might want to get into the industry--"Keep Out!"

If you are curious, you can see what some of the patents cover simply by typing their numbers into the search box on this page: http://www.google.com/patents

Sometimes, they pertain to very small components used in the construction of the machine, such as springs or diaphragms.

Edison, himself, held 199 patents covering the phonograph and sound recording. They are listed on this site: http://edison.rutgers.edu/phonpats.htm

thanks again for the info, the penny has finally dropped now regarding the patent for some reason, i thought they made a fresh plate for each machine, now i understand that they used the same plate for a while, but stamped the serial number on. hence no patent date until plate was changed.

thanks again all.

Domo

Domo,
I have seen ID tags that say "---may be covered under one or more of the following patents". The tag then goes on to list about 100 different numbers, and / or dates---Glad the penny fell for you--and, love that expression ! Ron Rich

Patents can fool you if you don't realize that they have little bearing on when an item was made. Almost always an item was made after the last patent date marked on it. Exceptions? Probably very few but I do have a 1900 GE electric fan that's all original and is exactly like the 1900 models should be, and which has a last patent date on the motor tag of June 1901. The motor tag is not from a later fan as it has the correct TYPE and FORM for 1900. The 1901 model was significantly changed and had a different motor tag. All I can think of is that GE was selling off old stock or made some 1900 models in 1901 for a special sale. All other GE pancake fans from 1900 back (including my other 1900 models) will have, as the last patent date, a May, 1890 date which would be up to 10 years before the fan was made.

Here is some info on the Edison Gems. They don't mention the Model C though.
http://www.pandlantiques.com/gemmodeld.html

A patent, once granted, is good for 17 years, and can be renewed once for another 17 years.