Steve,
Which Marathon Records? There were at least two companies using that name in the era we are concerned with. The U.S. label only existed for a few months in 1928 I believe. It was most likely laterally recorded. The British Marathon label was a line of longer playing vertical discs issued in 1913-14.
From TAC78RPMDG (II) by S.C. Barr
Regards,
J.
Need help identifying this phono...
Q&A about Talking Machines from the pre-electronic era (approx. 1885-1928).
Thanks John!
Yes, it was the British I was referring to - I have acquired a few of them and noted that they "looked" vertically cut similar to Pathes but when I tried a poor condition one on my Pathe machine the sapphire skated across the disc rather quickly?!
Why wouldn't I be able to play one of these Marathon records with a pathe sapphire tipped (vertical) soundbox?
Do I need a special tip to match the angle/cut of these records?
Thanks
Steve
Yes, it was the British I was referring to - I have acquired a few of them and noted that they "looked" vertically cut similar to Pathes but when I tried a poor condition one on my Pathe machine the sapphire skated across the disc rather quickly?!
Why wouldn't I be able to play one of these Marathon records with a pathe sapphire tipped (vertical) soundbox?
Do I need a special tip to match the angle/cut of these records?
Thanks
Steve
I used to be looking for things but now I've found them I don't look at them!
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Neophone
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Steve,
How fine do the grooves look? Maybe different size sapphire, diamond stylus or steel needle? I know quite a few U.S. vertical discs used steel needles. of course that early it could be any number of factors-different angle even, as you say.
Barr makes note of the fact that they were "longer playing" so they may have required a special stylus. I'll ask around.
Regards,
J.
How fine do the grooves look? Maybe different size sapphire, diamond stylus or steel needle? I know quite a few U.S. vertical discs used steel needles. of course that early it could be any number of factors-different angle even, as you say.
Barr makes note of the fact that they were "longer playing" so they may have required a special stylus. I'll ask around.
Regards,
J.
Listening to the Victrola fifteen minutes a day will brighten and alter your whole life...
J.
Thanks again.
Generally i would say that the grooves are much finer / narrower than Pathes although i do also have one which looks about the same.
They were made by the National Gramophone CO.
Thanks for asking around - i look forward to hearing more!
Regards
Steve
Thanks again.
Generally i would say that the grooves are much finer / narrower than Pathes although i do also have one which looks about the same.
They were made by the National Gramophone CO.
Thanks for asking around - i look forward to hearing more!
Regards
Steve
I used to be looking for things but now I've found them I don't look at them!
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Neophone
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Steve,
I have heard back from someone who passed the question on to another list I don't belong to. Here is the response:
"On an acoustic machine, they can played with an ordinary steel needle fitted to a Pathe-type soundbox, i.e. with the soundbox turned 90 degrees so that it faces the groove direction instead of being parallel to it like for standard needle-cut records. It clearly says so on every Marathon record sleeve and IIRC on the labels as well. The saphire-holder on a Pathe machine should take a long-shank "pickup" steel needle without problems, and then you can play Marathons on the Pathe machine. Speed is nominally 80 rpm, but just as unreliable as on any other type of record of this vintage (1912-1913 circa).
Much better reproduction and less wear (which with the steel needle is considerable due to the fine grooving of these discs!) will be had from a modern stereo cartridge wired for vertical-cut and fitted with a 2.5 mil or 3.0 mil stylus, the same type of stylus you are using on your ordinary HMV or whatever records. If you have several styli at your disposal, try which one gives the clearest sound and least noise. A Pathe or "2-minute wax" type sapphire will certainly NOT work, as these grooves have much smaller dimensions.
Chris Zwarg"
Hope this helps.
Regards,
J.
I have heard back from someone who passed the question on to another list I don't belong to. Here is the response:
"On an acoustic machine, they can played with an ordinary steel needle fitted to a Pathe-type soundbox, i.e. with the soundbox turned 90 degrees so that it faces the groove direction instead of being parallel to it like for standard needle-cut records. It clearly says so on every Marathon record sleeve and IIRC on the labels as well. The saphire-holder on a Pathe machine should take a long-shank "pickup" steel needle without problems, and then you can play Marathons on the Pathe machine. Speed is nominally 80 rpm, but just as unreliable as on any other type of record of this vintage (1912-1913 circa).
Much better reproduction and less wear (which with the steel needle is considerable due to the fine grooving of these discs!) will be had from a modern stereo cartridge wired for vertical-cut and fitted with a 2.5 mil or 3.0 mil stylus, the same type of stylus you are using on your ordinary HMV or whatever records. If you have several styli at your disposal, try which one gives the clearest sound and least noise. A Pathe or "2-minute wax" type sapphire will certainly NOT work, as these grooves have much smaller dimensions.
Chris Zwarg"
Hope this helps.
Regards,
J.
Listening to the Victrola fifteen minutes a day will brighten and alter your whole life...
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Neophone
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Steve,
More info has come in.
"From Rust's "The American Record Label Book":
"There was a Marathon record produced in England before World War 1. It was a very unusual cut in that it was vertical but the groove was V-shaped and required a special type of soundbox. It was long-playing in that it outran the conventional 78 rpm record by several minutes. Nevertheless, it made no strong appeal to the public, and vanished quickly."
Julian Vein"
Hope this helps. As more comes in I'll pass it along.
Regards,
J.
More info has come in.
"From Rust's "The American Record Label Book":
"There was a Marathon record produced in England before World War 1. It was a very unusual cut in that it was vertical but the groove was V-shaped and required a special type of soundbox. It was long-playing in that it outran the conventional 78 rpm record by several minutes. Nevertheless, it made no strong appeal to the public, and vanished quickly."
Julian Vein"
Hope this helps. As more comes in I'll pass it along.
Regards,
J.
Listening to the Victrola fifteen minutes a day will brighten and alter your whole life...
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Neophone
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More on the Columbia vertical discussion.
Adding to what JoeDS has already posted, Columbia's pressing of lateral disc records under the "Jones Patent" which they claimed was legal is what brought Victor and Columbia into the court room to decide the patent pool in the first place. Each company was infringing of the some patents the other held.
Related to the above, I have heard a very interesting tid-bit from a well respected fellow collector. At the time of the patent suit, VTMCo. purchased a controling interest in the Globe Record Company which had been pressing records for Columbia. The result being that some very early Columbia 7" records have "VTM" stamped in the dead wax!!!!!
(I've got to find me some of those! 
)
Regards,
J.
Adding to what JoeDS has already posted, Columbia's pressing of lateral disc records under the "Jones Patent" which they claimed was legal is what brought Victor and Columbia into the court room to decide the patent pool in the first place. Each company was infringing of the some patents the other held.
Related to the above, I have heard a very interesting tid-bit from a well respected fellow collector. At the time of the patent suit, VTMCo. purchased a controling interest in the Globe Record Company which had been pressing records for Columbia. The result being that some very early Columbia 7" records have "VTM" stamped in the dead wax!!!!!
(I've got to find me some of those! )
Regards,
J.
Listening to the Victrola fifteen minutes a day will brighten and alter your whole life...
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Record-changer
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Neophone:
That's the label! Maybe the gold has faded to near white on mine.
I have another record with the same label, but which is lateral and has runout grooves. I bought both at the same garage sale.
The year brings up an interesting possibility: Records made for soldiers to use in France. Most of the players there were Pathe.
That's the label! Maybe the gold has faded to near white on mine.
I have another record with the same label, but which is lateral and has runout grooves. I bought both at the same garage sale.
The year brings up an interesting possibility: Records made for soldiers to use in France. Most of the players there were Pathe.
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Neophone
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RC,
I don't believe soldiers of the A.E.F. were supplied with any records or phonographs. If you recall Edison made a special potrable DD phonograph. the Army/Navy which had to be purchased by soldiers themselves or concerned citizen groups IIRC. Also if they were manufactured for use on Path
I don't believe soldiers of the A.E.F. were supplied with any records or phonographs. If you recall Edison made a special potrable DD phonograph. the Army/Navy which had to be purchased by soldiers themselves or concerned citizen groups IIRC. Also if they were manufactured for use on Path
Listening to the Victrola fifteen minutes a day will brighten and alter your whole life...
John
Thanks for all the info on Marathon records - just read it all!
Yes, it now figures. When I tried a record with a conventional steel needle it seemed to track ok but sounded awful and very quiet. When I much later tried it on a Pathe vertical soundbox it skated across the record but in some passages it seemed to play for quite a long time without the soundbox hardly travelling at all in distance!
Combine the two scenarios above ie vertical box AND steel needle (not Pathe sapphire) and BINGO!
A long playing vertically recorded record with fine grooves for steel needles. I will now try and find out just how worn my remaining Marathons are - I wouldn't mind betting given the above atypical setup, that most if not all of them will already have been wrecked by previous confused owners!
Thanks again
Steve
Thanks for all the info on Marathon records - just read it all!
Yes, it now figures. When I tried a record with a conventional steel needle it seemed to track ok but sounded awful and very quiet. When I much later tried it on a Pathe vertical soundbox it skated across the record but in some passages it seemed to play for quite a long time without the soundbox hardly travelling at all in distance!
Combine the two scenarios above ie vertical box AND steel needle (not Pathe sapphire) and BINGO!
A long playing vertically recorded record with fine grooves for steel needles. I will now try and find out just how worn my remaining Marathons are - I wouldn't mind betting given the above atypical setup, that most if not all of them will already have been wrecked by previous confused owners!
Thanks again
Steve
I used to be looking for things but now I've found them I don't look at them!
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Neophone
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Just a note to anyone reading this thread as of this date I notice that some of my posts are incomplete for some reason. As it has been over a year since visiting this thread I can't recall what's missing to fill them in-Sorry.
Regards,
J.
Regards,
J.
Listening to the Victrola fifteen minutes a day will brighten and alter your whole life...
According to Tim Brook's & Brian Rust's Columbia Master Book Discography (Greenwood Press 1999) there were several blocks of vertical cut records, none of which were ever released to the public. They are as follows: 7000s (c. 1904/1909-1910) Two blocks in this series were used for experimental vertical-cut recordings, apparently dubbed from existing lateral masters, These were never issued commercially. 8000s (c.1910) Ten-inch vertical-cut tests, not issued commercially. 14500s (1908-1909) A catchall series comprising personal records, instructional records, and unissued tests and vertical-cut recordings. 15200s (c.1909-1910) Ten-inch vertical-cut tests, not issued commercially. There are no vertical-cut discs listed as being tested during the Great War. Perhaps more will come to light as time goes on............................
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Neophone
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Bill,
Ah personal records yes, But I don't recall ever seeing one that did not say personal record or have a notation of some sort. If we saw the label Recordchanger has it might help to clear things up. That's what it may be, although the label he's described post dates the info you've quoted.
Regards,
J.
Edited for very bad typos!
Ah personal records yes, But I don't recall ever seeing one that did not say personal record or have a notation of some sort. If we saw the label Recordchanger has it might help to clear things up. That's what it may be, although the label he's described post dates the info you've quoted.
Regards,
J.
Edited for very bad typos!
Last edited by Neophone on Fri Sep 05, 2008 11:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Listening to the Victrola fifteen minutes a day will brighten and alter your whole life...
John,
By "personal,'" in the 14500s there was a personal recording made by Booker T. Washington and special campaign issues by William Jennings Bryan and William Howard Taft.
Bill
By "personal,'" in the 14500s there was a personal recording made by Booker T. Washington and special campaign issues by William Jennings Bryan and William Howard Taft.
Bill
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Neophone
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Bill,
Those would be neat to hear! Now, were they for general issue or pressed specially for some group, party or organization? Is there a notation in your reference regarding the recording format of those discs?
Regards,
J.
Those would be neat to hear! Now, were they for general issue or pressed specially for some group, party or organization? Is there a notation in your reference regarding the recording format of those discs?
Regards,
J.
Listening to the Victrola fifteen minutes a day will brighten and alter your whole life...
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