Seeburg V - Motor

The mechanism motor on my Seeburg V does not run. It fails to run when the service switch is moved to the scan position or if a record selection is attempted. The play control relay is doing its job. I measured the voltages at the reversing switch and found the contacts G-H-J-K all have about 40 volts depending on reversing switch position regardless of the service switch position. Voltage measurement is between mechanism ground and test points. I should have measured the voltage at the play control relay before I wrote this but I didn't (just thought of that).

I took a look at the motor condenser and found the same voltages there as well.

This all started when I earlier had a wiring problem. I isolated that short circuiting to the decorative lights on the machine case. I haven't checked the reason for the short but the lights are now unplugged. I doubt that is related to the motor problem but?

I'll be looking at the schematics some more but perhaps you all will have a much better and quicker idea of what I did or did not do to cause this. It could have been that earthquake we had here in Phoenix. Gotta blame something!

David (Geritol Ghetto)

Hi Dave,
Yes--it's your fault ! You people in AZ are not supposed to import our earthquakes !!
Check power at the motor connections on the mechanism switch plate--If not good, check wiring thru reversing switch--if good check the motor run cap, if bad replace the cap ( most likely failure !), if good, replace the motor--
BTW, IF you still have a small cap soldered across the motor connections, clip it off, do NOT replace it--not needed ! Ron Rich

Voltage measurement is between mechanism ground and test points.

that will tell you nothing. All you are reading are the low-current leakage from the chassis ground back up through the power line.

-On the 11 pin mech plug pins 8 & 10 are the 110-120 AC supply to the motor.

If the 5U4 on the amp is not lit you might as well skip to the power switch and play control relay contacts.

Rob/NYC

Back to the Seeburg V.

The 5U4 rectifier is lit. I checked the mechanism for 120 VAC - none. Even so I jumpered the play control relay contacts just to eliminate any possible problem there.

I checked the mechanism cable for continuity from the 11 prong plug pins 8 & 10 to the mechanism. All ok There. I checked the 11 pin socket for 120 VAC on wires to pins 8 & 10. No voltage. Checked the 120 VAC wiring to the Play control relay contacts but no voltage there either. I do not see any bad solder connections or wire in the 120 VAC circuit.

I probably need to study the wiring diagrams some more and maybe draw them out for a better understanding.

I thought someone might have a suggestion or perhaps I am way off the track of this problem. This machine has the "modified" TSR1 eliminating the tubes etc. that it originally had. It seems doubtful, to me, any of those modifications would cause a 120 VAC problem to the mechanism.

I am usually missing something so I am sure that I am. Too many summers here in Phoenix and now the Geritol Ghetto. Thanks as always!

This machine has the "modified" TSR1 eliminating the tubes etc.

Oh-oh. this may be a mod done by a certain Midwest restoration co that among other mods, eliminated the scan assembly under the mech. However, if the relay is pulling-in it may still just a simple continuity.

Can you post/send a pic of the top and bottom chassis pans?

Rob

Rob, David,
If the play control relay is powered, the "scan control" has done it's job--
The play control relay provides an open/closed set of contacts for one side off the line voltage to the motor--other side is always there. Both are switched by the reversing switch. Ron Rich

Ron, one of the mods eliminated the scan mechanism but retains the relay. A timing ckt was used but I don't know how the scan-out time would be established. One method I experimented with was to use a solid state timer. The motor & amp session would start with the timer initiated by the same pulse that actuates the credit subtract. The timer interval would them begin and be reset each time the the mute contacts closed on the mech. Obviously this means some rewiring and an additional relay. The S-S timer would be reset each time the mech went into play mode. After a periods of approx 40 seconds if no closure of the mute was sensed or no new credit sub was sensed, the S-S timer contacts would open.

These are the timing relays I bought for that project:
http://s1192.photobucket.com/user/Rob-N ... rt=2&o=174

You can tell by the patina of dust, it was a while ago (Aug 1988). I Gepetto'ed it together w/clip leads and it did work but I never bothered to build a proper chassis box for it...maybe someday.....

Rob

Rob and Ron,

I should have mentioned that I did pull the scan control which this machine still has. I did it because I knew it had a problem since sometimes the mechanism would stop in the middle of its scan. I cleaned it and made certain it had the two steps to control the scan and clean contacts.

The play control relay is functioning. I keep thinking that I am missing a broken wire or bad connection in the TSR. Probably need to track down the 120 VAC all the way through the TSR to the 11 prong plug socket. I'll have to take the schematic to the office supply store and get it made a lot larger for my old eyeballs. It seems like the 120 VAC is really a direct connection to pins 8 and 10 except, If I am seeing the schematic correctly, the primary winding in the power transformer (T1) is part of that circuit going to pin 10 of the 11 prong mechanism socket.

Just out of curiosity, this TSR1 has a total of 4 cartridge fuses. Never having seen a "modified" TSR before, it seems like a lot of added fuses for Tormat system modifications. It is good it has the fuses but no markings what they had intended their value to be. If I remember correctly the "added" fuses are in the 3-4 amp ranges. I was just about to try putting some much lower amperage fuses in when the 120 VAC problem stopped everything.

Thank You for all of your help and amazing knowledge and experience.

David (Geritol Ghetto)

Checked the 120 VAC wiring to the Play control relay contacts but no voltage there either.

The 5U4 rectifier is lit. I checked the mechanism for 120 VAC - none.

David, these two statements are in conflict. The 5U4 is powered only by the transformer in the amp which is connected in parallel with the phono motor.

Unless some bizarre mod was done, the presence of a lit 5U4 means there is 120Ac going through the play control relay and the problem is just after that point.

If you are sure there is no 120Ac at pins 8 & 10 the problem logically lies in the two wires coming from those pins. This is simple continuity.

Rob

I pulled the TSR1 out so I could get a good look. The wiring has been modified, on the 11 pin plug, some pins are vacant and some have wires that should not. The gray wire on pin 8 is a much lighter gauge than the wire on pin 10. I doubt it is really adequate to carry a motor load. That, pin 8, gray wire runs up to the added 1 watt resistors Clean looking resistors) near where the tubes used to be. The thought crossed my mind to put 120 VAC on pin 8-10 with jumpers but no telling what kind of melt down that would cause.

I do have a good looking, unmolested TSR3 but haven't checked the transformer on it. Perhaps it would be easier to (try) go back to the original Tormat factory system if I can figure out what else may have been converted on this machine besides the TSR1. Thanks!
David

David, that does look like an RJB mod. I suggest you contact them (they are now in California) and send them pic's along with a description of the situation.

http://www.yelp.com/biz/rjb-electronic-services-gardena

They may be able to clue you in. I can clearly see some zip cord that replaced the original wiring and what may be a replaced transformer. Be sure to ask what mods may have been done to the credit unit and mech.

While a TSR-3 is superior in as-built state, it is not a drop-in. Minor mods are needed in the mech and the credit unit needs a new plug and additional wire -that is assuming nothing was done to the credit unit. Since this is for home use, it would make more sense to get the modded TSR going if at all possible. I suspect the prob is minor.

Let us know what you find and we'll try to help from that point.

Rob

Thanks Rob! I kind of thought it was an RJB modification. I knew them from the Fun Fair in Pasadena years ago. I contacted them several months ago about it. They said "if it was their work there was not a schematic for it. " If I sent it in they would fix it for a price". There is a local friend I've had for years and I hire him when I really make or find a mess. He has a lot of experience so I will hire him to spend some time on it. Thank You Ron and Rob.

Conclusion to the Seeburg V motor problem. My friend (the jukebox guy) stopped by yesterday. We rolled the V out and he went to work. In a few minutes he found 120 VAC at the plug for the credit unit. Counting the credit unit plug/socket pins proved it was an 11 pin plug and socket, same as the plug and socket for the mechanism. It should have been an 8 pin/plug. WOW!

I failed to recognize that possibility and had, of course reversed those connections on one of my "back door" removals. I had taken the back door off several times in the course of cleaning, checking etc. but was lucky enough not to make that mistake. The last time I had it off it was to install a new speaker wire harness I built. I couldn't leave all those unsoldered splices with masking tape and cellophane tape all over the unsoldered connections. When I replaced the back door my luck had run out. It is amazing but apparently I did not destroy or harm any component by my error. As I test play the machine we shall see. Just because Seeburg made it almost impossible to get a plug into the wrong socket doesn't mean it can't happen on a machine with so many modifications. I'll post written documentation, inside the cabinet, for the plug/socket danger and mark each plug socket in some fashion so the guy after me does not make the same mistake I did.

Thanks everyone for all the ideas and assistance. Every comment is always appreciated! I think we got it if I did not damage anything.

David (Geritol Ghetto)

David, with a little luck you'll be Ok here, but misplaced plugs are a problem for these old machines.

I bought VL in 1989. The previous idiot owner had burned up the main tran . He had taken the drum out to 'fix it" and when his ham-hands put it back in he broke the key on the plug while forcing it in. Smoke ensued. If Seeburg had been a little more generous with fusing this might not have ended so badly..OTOH, I did get it cheaper this way.

Rob