Phonoland

Hi Matt,
Well, when I kick the bucket, all "warranties" are null and void anyway --nothing I , nor anyone else can do about that ! (unless you know something I don't ?? ) Ron Rich

I just up graded to a Seeburg SMC model, using my new Gen 2 MCU, has records in it that are at least 50, or more, years old, and have never been changed. Some of the records are Italian made, and probably ir-replaceable ? This jukebox, along with 12 wallOmatics has been in this Italian Restorante

Ron, did you add a code converter for the 3W1s -or do away with them?

Rob

Hi Rob,
How could I "do away" with the wallboxes ?? That would "remove the charm" from the place ( I actually operate a M100B in another "Italian Restorante", with 12 more 3W1's attached). Sure, I used our "stepper replacement-code converter"--I did do one thing however due to using the converter--I found that without "hearing" the relay(s) chatter, I had no perception of what, if anything was happening ( had wire failure on one of the first two wall box power transformers), so I soldered a 27 volt mini lamp into the system--it "blinks" upon wallbox operation. Ron Rich

so... here's the funny upshot of my original post... i couldn't tell until i decided to pull the mech (which made it much easier to reset the tracking springs... god i hate them!) but regarding the trip lever bias spring... turns out the little guy had slid off his usual perch and thus the tension dropped. once i had a closer look at my manual diagram and Rob's video... i could hardly recognize the spring.

here's how i found it vs. how i (very easily) reset it:






i found it easier to balance the tonearm, and the trip lever felt uninvasive after re-loading that spring.

sonically, i can't tell yet, as i'm having a miserable time getting the two sides VTF set right. had to bail on that tonight, to prepare for tomorrow's recording session.

heaps of distortion and mech resonance in the audio. sometimes when i give a slight tug 'upward' on the arm, i can get it to sound better for a second. but i'm fighting the A side / B side counterweight dilemma. i'll get back to it hopefully on tuesday or wednesday.

i like the ability to hear changes in tracking distortion/clarity by gently tugging on the VTF springs. until one of them comes off... i'll tell ya, the amount of cursing and swearing that ensues while trying to get the springs back on while in play mode without destroying the stylus is unlike anything i've uttered in recent memory.

right now it sounds awful. i still need to recap the TSA-1, but i want to get the tonearm set reasonably first, and save these precious new T-needles, not to mention some of these records...

I am sorry to read that you are having so much trouble dealing with the tonearm tracking weight. With the original styli it was simple and not that critical. The new ones appear to be more delicate.

Did you contact the seller for suggestions?

In general, when setting weight without a gauge I would set them to a point where the cantilever just compresses slightly.

I suggest eliminating the damping function in this case. Slightly loosen the locking bolt around the grub screw that holds the damping cylinder -just enough to allow free movement of the arm and retighten the locknut (go easy on the tightening).

Rob-NYC

Hi Eric,
Whatzmadder--could not see down in the mech compartment due to smog ??
That spring often "falls down" (all by itz-self, if you wanna believe the people who tell you that !)--
As for Rob's suggestion on the damping situation--He and I dis-agree on this and I guess always will--
Seeburg spent probably more money on engineering of the tone arm then any other part of that mechanism--they engineered it once for the 78 RPM models, then again for the totally re-designed 45 RPM player, then again for the first stereo players, then again for the PFEA models--but--they elected not to equip the PFEA models with the new cartridge, as they had "damping problems" show up in testing. They delayed the introduction of the new tone arm/cartridge/stylii, till the next year. The SS-160 came with the totally redesigned suspension system to accommodate the new audio system. This arm was painted "Seeburg Red" and shortly after it's introduction in the SS-160 ( and a brown colored larger version used in the HSC series units), they began seeing alarming rates of sales for the new (yellow-violet) needle .
Investigating the reason for the large sales numbers, they found that the needles were being "broken" often. Investigating further, they found the reason was the damping fluid was leaking out of the new style tone arms, at a very rapid rate, causing the needles to "bang" against the records. This lead to another re-re-design of that tone arm and the painting of the one for the 160 mech going to a green/blue color. They did not change the color of the HSC type, just the cylinder that holds the fluid. "100 select mechs" from the time of the re-design had un-painted arms, and used different springs/ color needles, for the heavier tone arm pressure suggested.
Another factor in this is the cradle construction--that cradle is meant to be "tense" --the correct tension is achieved by that "grub screw". It was tightened to spec by a really nice little old ( almost blind, in her later days) lady, who I just loved to visit while she worked--was amazing to watch her do the final assembly and checks to that unit--she did it by feel, and sound ! They shortened that screw on the last type cradles, and glued it in instead of having a locking nut. IMHO, IF you must remove that screw for any reason, at least make a mental note of where you found it--and put it back exactly the same way !! BTW--on the ones without a lock nut, you will need a screwdriver that fits the screw very well, if not exactly--I have changed hundreds of them !! Ron Rich

Rob-NYC wrote:I am sorry to read that you are having so much trouble dealing with the tonearm tracking weight. With the original styli it was simple and not that critical. The new ones appear to be more delicate.

Did you contact the seller for suggestions?

In general, when setting weight without a gauge I would set them to a point where the cantilever just compresses slightly.

I suggest eliminating the damping function in this case. Slightly loosen the locking bolt around the grub screw that holds the damping cylinder -just enough to allow free movement of the arm and retighten the locknut (go easy on the tightening).

Rob-NYC

i appreciate the sympathy! i think i could hear a point of minimum distortion while gently lifting the arm - and it seems to concur with your notion of a slight compression of the cantilever. i got the B side set like that once, but the A side was wacky - and of course compensating for that just threw off the B side again. are the two springs the same length when not tensioned? i wonder if one has been stretched more than the other. i borrowed one from my spare mech but was pretty heavy handed about getting it on the hook.

i'll try to identify the damping influence here... does it affect the A/B balance? there is a nice smooth descent and landing of the needle right now.

cheers!

amazing. i love reading about the evolution of the systems - thanks! and that she would do it by feel... that's what i'm trying to do, but am a total novice!

yes - i'm wary of losing the damping as the current production needles seem not as robust as they were back then. do they tend to go out of balance on the LPC?

e

Ron Rich wrote:Hi Eric,
Whatzmadder--could not see down in the mech compartment due to smog ??
That spring often "falls down" (all by itz-self, if you wanna believe the people who tell you that !)--
As for Rob's suggestion on the damping situation--He and I dis-agree on this and I guess always will--
Seeburg spent probably more money on engineering of the tone arm then any other part of that mechanism--they engineered it once for the 78 RPM models, then again for the totally re-designed 45 RPM player, then again for the first stereo players, then again for the PFEA models--but--they elected not to equip the PFEA models with the new cartridge, as they had "damping problems" show up in testing. They delayed the introduction of the new tone arm/cartridge/stylii, till the next year. The SS-160 came with the totally redesigned suspension system to accommodate the new audio system. This arm was painted "Seeburg Red" and shortly after it's introduction in the SS-160 ( and a brown colored larger version used in the HSC series units), they began seeing alarming rates of sales for the new (yellow-violet) needle .
Investigating the reason for the large sales numbers, they found that the needles were being "broken" often. Investigating further, they found the reason was the damping fluid was leaking out of the new style tone arms, at a very rapid rate, causing the needles to "bang" against the records. This lead to another re-re-design of that tone arm and the painting of the one for the 160 mech going to a green/blue color. They did not change the color of the HSC type, just the cylinder that holds the fluid. "100 select mechs" from the time of the re-design had un-painted arms, and used different springs/ color needles, for the heavier tone arm pressure suggested.
Another factor in this is the cradle construction--that cradle is meant to be "tense" --the correct tension is achieved by that "grub screw". It was tightened to spec by a really nice little old ( almost blind, in her later days) lady, who I just loved to visit while she worked--was amazing to watch her do the final assembly and checks to that unit--she did it by feel, and sound ! They shortened that screw on the last type cradles, and glued it in instead of having a locking nut. IMHO, IF you must remove that screw for any reason, at least make a mental note of where you found it--and put it back exactly the same way !! BTW--on the ones without a lock nut, you will need a screwdriver that fits the screw very well, if not exactly--I have changed hundreds of them !! Ron Rich

"Adjustments" on Seeburgs, with only two exceptions that I can think of ( Detent Switch--read out contacts), which are ware points, NEVER go out of adjustment, with-out help ! 99.8% of the time,if you THINK something suddenly "needs adjustment", it's probably a "lubrication", or dirt issue, IMHO--- Ron Rich

Ron Rich wrote:"Adjustments" on Seeburgs, with only two exceptions that I can think of ( Detent Switch--read out contacts), which are ware points, NEVER go out of adjustment, with-out help ! 99.8% of the time,if you THINK something suddenly "needs adjustment", it's probably a "lubrication", or dirt issue, IMHO--- Ron Rich

...or in this (original post) case, a wayward finger or tool that must have nudged that spring out of its saddle! it was definitely confounding that the trip lever would suddenly have an effect on the tracking.

everyone over here is asleep except me, so, i'm a hafta wait til daytime to get back on the balancing act, hopefully tomorrow.