Seeburg L100 -Trials and Tribulations w/the Cancel Solenoid

Hi; Just got my Seeburg L100 up and running after two decades of storage. After a bout of "select a record, pick up the record, reject the record" game, I lubed the clutch assembly and got her working. I then went about the fun job of cleaning her up. I thought everything was going swell, then troubles. First a little buzz of the SPU1 cancel solenoid that grew into big time buzz. Now she won't release. I've cleaned, lubricated, checked the switch gaps until I'm blue in the face. Every once in a while she works right, then bam, back to solid buzzing. I have to power down, to stop the buzz, and then listen to the record. Help and suggestions appreciated. And for crying out loud, how in the world do I put the little copper fingers back into the pushbutton selectors? Yes, I took them out to clean them.

The problem is likely in the credit unit's timing relay.

The unit will look like this one:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1163873429 ... 6504/SPU1#

The timing relay is the one with the copper rings and the problem will be pitted/dirty contact points and inadequate wiping action.

While at it, clean and check the action of the contacts on the cancel solenoid on top. A drop of 20wt oil on the --bearings and roller-- of the credit wheel is also OK. Take care to keep it off the contacts or you'll be back in there soon.

What has been done to this machine? Have the amp and Tormat control boards been gone over and --all-- capacitors replaced?

For safe operation, this is a must.

Rob/NYC

Hi Rob;
Ah yes... that's the little monster.
I'm going to go thru it this weekend and test/replace all the caps on the credit unit. I'll pay special attention to the timing relay.
And as far as I know there has been nothing ever done to this machine. They're old caps, but not wax ones. ? Similar to the ones in your pictures.
We've had this machine in the family for 40+ years, it was played by the kids, then just stored away.
By the way, do new caps (as in smaller and different compositions matter? Or should a feller try to stay with more vintage ones? I've heard arguments over vintage ones when it comes to audio buffs. I think a .05uf is a .05 uf.
Thanks a big bunch for your reply.

Hi Adonnis,
I agree with Rob, the timing relay can cause this--however, I find that in most cases if intermittent, it's caused by the credit wheel being "dry". The easiest test for this, is to remove the SPU, and operate the cancel coil with your hand--it MUST "snap" back. If can not hear the "snap" it is too slow and will cause the "shotgunning" you heard. If you have the long, "Seeburg Oilier" ( ValveSpout, brand, made in the UK--still available at "Longs")( I still have two, both working, and over 40 years old !) you can oil both the top and bottom of that shaft, and work it in by hand--If not, you will need to dis-assemble it and oil it (suggest 20 wt ND oil). One other thing can cause this problem--At the end of the stroke of the subtract coil plunger should be a brass plug. Once in awhile, it falls into the coil itself, and rattles around causing the plunger to stick.
Also--often "guy's" allow this to fall totally out and do not replace it. This, over time, will cause the plunger to "stick" in the "pulled position" intermittently.
HTH Ron Rich

Forgot about your cap question--
Yes--IMHO, anyway, a .05 cap is a .05 cap--However, that's not quite true today, as a "new" numbering system is now in use that makes a .05 cap a .047 cap, which to confuse us even further, under the "newer (est ?) system" maybe marked "473(and a letter indicating tolerance)"--- Ron Rich

Rob and Ron;
Just an update...
I replaced the cap on the timing relay. My tester says it was okay, but a new one is now in place.
I cleaned the timing relay points again, and used a GC fine grade burnishing tool.
So... did I miss the relay that closes on activation of the solenoid? Because it's working now like a champ!
<Happy Dance>
Thanks.

Adonnis,
I am not sure I understand the question--the only "relay" involved is the "timing relay", which you have addressed ? Glad you are dancing ! Ron Rich

Ron;
Sorry, it wasn't a question. It was purely rhetorical.
Sometimes I like talking to myself.
I must have cleaned all the points except the one that really needed it.

Adonnis,
Glad to hear that--I thought for a moment that I may have lost more of my mind-reading skills---
Word of advice--I always take the contact sets off the relay and check for "pits"--If pitted, the burnishing will only last for a short time-- Ron Rich

A follow-up.
I've learned that this cancel solenoid messes up every time I first use this jukebox. I turn it on, and the cancel solenoid hangs. I turn it off, and back on, to listen to my selection.
I usually, for the umptenth time, take the credit unit apart and work on it, then it finally seems to work properly.
What I've failed to notice is that by this time the machine has warmed up. It's this that is making the credit unit work.
After playing 4-5 songs, the machine is warmed up, and the cancel solenoid begins to work properly.
My question is now....
What the heck is warming up, allowing the credit unit to work correctly?? Hmmmm?
Suggestions are welcomed.
Thanks.

This should be straightforward.

Remove the SPU cover and reconnect it. When it gets stuck determine if the cancel solenoid it being held electrically or just binding.

if it appears still powered, see if the timing relay has released. While the unit is stuck gently try to move the timing relay's contact actuator. If the relay stays energized you will need to trace the circuit.

If the timing relay operates properly mechanically, look for contacts getting stuck together.

Rob/NYC

Adonnis,
Didja check the two things I mentioned in a post, 4, or 5 above this (Credit wheel snapback--brass plug) ?
ONLY other things I can think of is a pitted contact--either in the "W" switch or, the relay itself, or too much tension on relay armature required to start it--should be 65 grams (also, is the phenolic loose on that relay ?). Ron Rich

Ron - I did indeed check the credit wheel snapback. It seems to be working fine. If I raise all the credit wheel contact blades, I can get it to stick if I operate it slow enough. I thought about moving the cam spring over one notch, but didn't feel that it was necessary. I've cleaned it and removed the coil, yep, the brass plug is there and in position. I wouldn't really call it a brass plug, it's more of a sleeve that inserts down into the coil. Perhaps the brass plug is all ready gone?
The phenolic is not loose, and the contacts appear clean. I have no tool to check the spring to test for the 65 grams. Suggestions?
Rob - Yes the coil is still energized. If I try to raise it, it buzzes even more loudly, and I can feel the coil pulling it back. If I push down the timing relay, the solenoid releases.

When the unit has been playing for awhile, and is warmed up, the timing relay works fine. That confuses me.

Adonnis,
Still sounds like a "lubrication problem" to me. Did you oil the rotary wheel shaft--top and bottom with 20 wt. oil ? If not, do so, and operate the cancel plunger about 100 times--once again, it MUST "snap back"-you need to hear the "snap". Adjusting the spring will do no good. If it does not "snap back", you will need to dis-assemble, clean and re-lube the wheel, and all other "moving parts". Did you remove the two end screws on the cancel coil and l@@k at the brass plunger stop ? Are there any bits of brass floating inside that coil ? Does the plunger actually hit brass when it bottoms ( it MUST) ?
Did you check ALL contact points for "pits/burns", contact pressure, and gap ?
Ron Rich

Ron-
Thanks for sticking with me.
I did indeed lubricate the rotary wheel shaft with 20wt oil. I just did it again, and operated it 100 times. I always get the snap, and the wheel gets rotated. I've removed the screws for you to look at it. No brass to be seen.
Yes, I've also gaped and checked the contacts.
I'm thinking to myself that this can't be that hard, it's not rocket science for crying out loud. lol