Phonoland

Hello thanks for allowing me in your community. I am Steve from Georgia USA.

I worked in a large arcade refurbish shop (Lieberman Music Co, Bloomington,MN) in the 1970's-80's rebuilding traded in money changers, vending machines and games. I was always interested in the jukebox shop but I never made the transition.

I got away from arcade equipment until I aquired 2 junk EM pinball machines a year ago. I rebuilt them both to be as close to new as possible, and am proud to show them off.

I aquired my 1st jukebox last week. I paid $150 for a semi-working Seeburg AY-160. It came with 84 records, the Seeburg service manual and troubleshooting guide. This is what has been occupying all my free time.
I have also been rebuilding antique radios/phonos for a hobby over the last 40 years. I love old EM pins, I love old tube equipment so this AY-160 is right up my alley.

Although it isn't fully working yet, I absolutely love this jukebox. It has been neglected for decades so it needs a lot of restoration work. But really, it's a gorgeous machine and I am putting my best overall general experience into it.

I continue to digest the information presented in the service manual and troubleshooting guides. It's like a big puzzle to me begging to be understood. That is what I like to do... in general.

So please don't mind if I need to pick your brains along the way. I understand there's a lot of experienced jukebox tallent here, so any advice will be abundently appreciated.

I'll make the specifics of my AY-160 on my following posts.
Thanks for reading
-Steve

Ok, about the jukebox.

The immediate problem I need to resolve is record selection.
I can put credits on the machine and it selects normally but the mech scans twice and stops without picking up a record. I followed the troubleshooting guide.

I unplugged the Tormat RCA connector from the Pulse amplifier. I ran a jumper from the RCA input jack, made a selection and as the mech is scanning I touch TP-C with the jumper. TP-C's function is to provide low voltage for the test. The mech did not trip.
Next on the list was to start the mech scanning and touch TP-A to TP-B. This grounds the grid of the 2050 tube. The tube conducted and the mech stopped scanning and loaded/played a record.

Next on the troubleshooting list is the 12AX7 tube. I tested the old one, and one side of it was bad so I put in a new one from my stock. TP-C still would not trigger.

Next on the troubleshooting list was to replace the 2050 tube. I don't have one and I wanted to be sure that was the issue. I set up a test as indicated in the picture, hoping to see a reaction in my scope when I applied TP-C. No reaction at all. Hmm......
I removed the Pulse Amplifier and found plate load resistor R505 open, grid bias R506 open, R503 and R504 way out of specification. I replaced those all along with R507, and a new coupling cap C506. I tried the amp again using TP-C but the mech still did not trip. I then removed the Tormat Controller and replaced the coupling cap C507. It still won't trip with using either the RCA jack plugged in, or TP-C.

But I did find that I can jump the Pulse Amp input and scratch it onto a 1.5v "AA" battery and that DOES trip the mech. I am assuming the battery is saturating the output of the 12AX7. I apparently have a clear electrical path to the 2050, so I have ordered two of them and hopefully get them by the weekend.

My goal on this jukebox is to first get it operating correctly then do a full recap of the Single Pricing Unit, the Tormat Controller and then the audio amp. The audio amp's preamp and driver tubes check very good in my tester. It sounds fabulous except for a scratchy volume pot.

I have begun servicing a different part while I wait for the 2050's. I've removed the filthy/grimy Tormat Selector unit from the jukebox. I discovered how to partially disassemble it... remove the 3 switch groups, the treadle bar switch assemblies etc. I washed them up very well using a dish soap & water solution and a toothbrush. I was careful not to get the latch solenoid or counter unit wet.

I blew it dry and let it dry overnigh in a low humidity room.
I polished the metal frame this morning and fixed the rusty spots. I put a small dab of Teflon grease on the stems of each selector switch and a spec of Teflon greason on each latch bar hook.

The service switches needed a lot of help. The slide switch was so bad the spring wouldn't return it back to off. I took the slide switch apart, cleaned and polished it. I did the same with the selector switch. I polished its mounting bracket.

I reassembled the Tormat Selector unit and the only thing left to do on it is to adjust the 3 Treadle bar switches. I am so glad the manual covers their proper adjustment.

Here's a pic of the schematc for testing and where I was looking for a Pulse Amp output signal on my scope, along with photos of my "baby"- and it's freshly cleaned Tormat Selector unit.

Any suggestions are very welcome:

Hi Steve, since no one else has responded I'll welcome you to this forum.

You might plow through the thread just down the board on yet another AY-160:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5791

Most of the troubleshooting for this, and other tube era Tormat machines is covered there.

The right approach in these sorts of cases is to start from the end point: what actually trips-detents and plays a disk. You did that by grounding the thyratron grid.

This is followed by placing the negative end of a standard battery (AA-C-D) against the chassis and touching the tip of the pulse map's RCA plug to the positive end a few times. This will flip all Toroids to the "selected" state. Place the RCA plug back in the P.A. and start the mech scanning -make sure the service sw is in the "normal" or "play" position. The mechanism should trip at the first slot it finds. Press reject and see that it will trip at at least a few others in succession.

If this fails to happen first make sure there is a readout pulse of minus approx 300 vdc at the plungers that ride under the Tormat. the rear plunger is for the "A" sides the center ones are ground return and the one closest to the front of the mech is for "B" sides.

But I did find that I can jump the Pulse Amp input and scratch it onto a 1.5v "AA" battery and that DOES trip the mech. I am assuming the battery is saturating the output of the 12AX7.

The 12AX7 is AC coupled via a transformer so the battery DC would not reach the grid. What it did do was create a pulse similar to what a flipped toroid would do when read out by the mech.

The pulse amp is actually a set of filters designed to eliminate all the extraneous electrical noise and a form of multivibrator to lengthen the output pulse to be sure the mechanism and a long enough trip pulse to react.

If you have a test amplifier with reasonably high gain, charge the Tormat as above, connect the RCA plugs from it to the input of the test amp and listen for the pulses as the mech scans. The readout pulses are louder and distinct from the other noise that occurs as the mech scans.

Have the amp and selection receiver been rebuilt? That really eliminates a lot of these sorts of minor problems and is critical to preventing damage to the units.

Rob/NYC

Thank you Ron.

I have worked on this jukebox all day today. I got the selector unit all together, adjusted and put back into the machine and did some general cleaning.

This is followed by placing the negative end of a standard battery (AA-C-D) against the chassis and touching the tip of the pulse map's RCA plug to the positive end a few times. This will flip all Toroids to the "selected" state. Place the RCA plug back in the P.A. and start the mech scanning -make sure the service sw is in the "normal" or "play" position. The mechanism should trip at the first slot it finds. Press reject and see that it will trip at at least a few others in succession.

If this fails to happen first make sure there is a readout pulse of minus approx 300 vdc at the plungers that ride under the Tormat. the rear plunger is for the "A" sides the center ones are ground return and the one closest to the front of the mech is for "B" sides.

My new 2050 tubes came in today and I used a fresh new "D" battery to flip the memory. The mech still failed to pick up any records. I checked for -300V at the plungers. Nope, nothing. The memory controller's TP-G is the line feeding the detent switch. I got about -450 on the TP-G... and on one side of the detent switch. But the -450 would not make it through the switch, even at the top of the cam.

So I removed the switch. Not very much contacts are remaining there, I assume most of them have burned away. The mech's frame under the detent switch has black burnt specs dropped on it which aparrently came from the contacts. Anyway I cleaned the remaining contacts and adjusted the detent switch as per the service manual. After I fixed the detent switch, I got -450v through it at the top of the cam lobe.

I put the svc switch back to play and flipped the memory unit with the "D" battery and made a selection. The mech scans twice and stops. Still didn't pick up a record. Hmm.

I checked for voltage at the plungers while scanning. Nope. Nothing.
Turned out the "A" and "B" plunger wires were broken off. I couldn't really tell until I tugged on them.
I removed the plunger block from the machine. Someone had put oil on the block, gumming it up pretty bad so I disassembled and cleaned it out. I also cleaned the bottom of the memory unit. It seems someone had covered it with grease. The silver tops of the plungers have worn very thin and some brass is showing through. Now the plungers in the block moves very well and all the contacts are very clean.

I put it all together, making a quick estimate of the plunger block adjustments. I again used a "D" battery to flip the memory unit but it still refuses to pick up any record at all. The "A" and "B" plungers were arching to the next memory unit contacts as it scanned across with popping sounds from the speakers, so I carefully did the plunger block and memory unit position adjustments per the svc manual. It is not arching anymore but still won't trigger to pick up a record. The voltage on the plungers vary between -450 and -150 depending if the detent switch is closed or not, apparently loaded by the memory unit. TP-G on the controller reflects the same figures.
If I am supposed to see -300v on the plungers with a closed detent switch then I probably have a bad resistor(s) in the controller unit.

I have a BNC to RCA adapter on my scope. I can flip the memory unit with a "D" battery then make a selection in "Play" mode with the RCA jack plugged directly into my scope. The carriage scans twice but I see no reaction at all in my scope through the RCA jack. Flat line no matter how sensitive I put the scope input. I did a resistance measurement on the RCA jack tip to gnd and get about 2 ohms. The jack is wired so the shield and red wire are soldered to gnd and the green wire to the tip.

I made a video of this: http://youtu.be/B2slj9coMNs
* The 1st part shows how I set the mech into position to adjust the plunger block. (I tied off the tonearm to keep things quiet... it's 2:30am... also I had to walk around to switch the machine off).
* The 2nd part shows where I have the plungers adjusted when the mech is in the playing position.
* The 3rd part shows how I am flipping the memory unit with my battery and checking the output.

If the memory unit requires -300v to reset the cores then it's only getting about half of what it needs and I will need to investigate the power supply in the controller unit. Does that sound right?
I will recap the whole thing and replace any resistor out-of-specification, but I can't do the whole thing right now. For now I can only fix what's causing problems.

Have anyone ever come across a bad Tormat memory unit?
I notice the one I have sparks A and B to the next contact as it's scanning if its position is not adjusted right. Can I assume the -150 and -450 is probably alright? I know it should NOT be adjusted so it sparks, but it should go as the manual says it should.

I am asking this because I'm selecting all the selections with my "D" cell, the power supply in the selection controller delivers enough power to spark yet I have no output to the RCA jack.

Maybe that's a dumb question but it's 4:00am. Good night all!

PS
I just put a thin layer of lithium grease along the grounding tracks of the memory unit to cut down on plunger friction. The track itself looks fine, except you can see where it's been rubbed.

Steve, if the simplified diagrams you have are similar to this one:

http://www.fileconvoy.com/dfl.php?id=g8 ... 72f11bfe4a

You'll see that the circuit becomes essentially near zero ohms after the 36 ohm resistor. Therefore R-O voltage also becomes zero when on a Tormat rivet w/detent sw contacts closed.

"Bad Tormat" -Unlikely. If it sparks while scanning the individual readout loops are likely Ok. Just test w/ohmmeter rivet-to-center ground plate.

Did you check on the center plungers? They return the R-O pulse to ground.

Place a business card between the tormat contacts and rivets. Then test from the center plate (under tormat) to chassis ground. Should be very near zero ohms. If open, look at the fuse on the front of the mech at the bottom of the terminal strip on the right.

----If that fuse is open you must find out why before reapplying power.----

You should NOT be seeing -450vdc at TP-G That is way too high. The voltage here is tightly controlled by the 0A2's @approx 300vdc. Are both 0A2 tubes glowing? Check the resistors around this circuit. Resistors in H-V pulsed circuits often fail and sometimes go down radically in value as they burn up internally.

It is odd that your scope didn't even see noise spikes as the mech scanned. I usually used a slow deflection speed around 30hz & 1volt full scale to start with. The approx 2 ohms at the RCA plug is correct.

FWIW: I generally eliminate the function of the center (ground) plungers and simply run a wire w/inline fuse ( I use 2 or 3A-fast) to chassis ground. Remember to disconnect the fuse on the mech if you do this.


Rob/NYC

Steve,
I would advise you to re-build the TSU--somethings wrong with the voltages you are reading--
Also, the Tormat can be flipped, using a good D cell ( Rob--smaller cells usually work, but are NOT reliable for this), by just "tapping" it once, quickly.
The pins MUST be "flat", and have silver left on them, or they will "dig-up" the gold plated rivets on the TMU, and will fail to make proper contact.
Ron Rich

Ok I need to clear up a mistake here; Do --not- place a card between the plungers and contacts for this test. But make sure ALL voltage is out of the plungers before testing.

Place a business card between the tormat contacts and rivets. Then test from the center plate (under tormat) to chassis ground. Should be very near zero ohms. If open, look at the fuse on the front of the mech at the bottom of the terminal strip on the right.

The mistake I made was in assuming that the middle (grounding plungers) were no longer used -as in my machines. If you place a card here on a unmodified machine you will have no ground return for the readout loops and get a faulty "open" reading.

Rob/NYC

Wow thank you both very much for your replies.

Please let me address them point to point.

Hi Rob:

*Thank you Rob for the simplified read diagram. That helps a lot!
*Good to know my Tormat Memory is probably alright.
*I rebuilt the plunger block yesterday. I removed it from the machine, cleaned out the oily gunk found in it. Cleaned all 4 plungers and the Bakelite ends, reassembled and soldered new wires to the plungers -> block terminals. The 4 plungers seem to be doing their job now.
*Checking Tormat Memory center ground contact: I did not use a business card, but left it as it would be normally and checked memory center ground to mech ground, and memory center ground to chassis ground. They are all grounded together.
*The fuse on the front of the mech tests good.
*Thanks for the -450V note. Both OA2's glow. I can see a neon purple ring glowing around the top of them.
*Thanks for the reference point to set my scope.
The only time I will see -anything- come through the RCA jack is if I have the memory unit maladjusted and it sparks. In that case I can hear it also pop through the amp/speakers, and I get random noise through the RCA. But you can see nothing comes through when the memory unit is properly adjusted.

Hi Ron:

Thanks for the tips and for the plunger silver note. The tips of my plungers are rounded and brass can be seen showing through in at least one of them. Can they be repaired? I was wondering if I can put a bead of regular solder on them then properly shape the bead?
Also, I put a small amount of teflon grease where the grounding plungers rub on the ground. Should I also put a small amount on the 160 contacts or leave them dry?

I appreciate the thoughts of both of you more than you know. You guys are great, and I'll be checking the power supply circuits in my Tormat Controller.

I rebuild them using a silver dime, from which I punch out contacts--
I would not use that grease-- Ron Rich

WOW THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR THE HELP !!!!!!

I took the time to map out the component connections on the controller and identify bad resistors and build a shopping list. I replaced 6 resistors, 3 of them were completely open. I also replaced all the Litic/Paper caps. I put it back together and ZINGO! the mech picked up the 1st record in the line, I rejected it and picked up the next one etc. Looks like it's working perfectly. Woohoo!
I really, really can't convey my excitement here. I am beside myself. You guys are really the best of the best!

I will attach the component map I made in case it might help anyone else. Now that it is working properly I can get to the rest of it. Namely, I need to check resistors and recap the Amp SHFA4, the stepper RCSU2, the speed control TSAU1, single pricing unit and service the mechanism. Someone had cut the lead to the popularity meter solenoid so I'll have to investigate that.

I am -so- blown away by this working and again, thank you from the bottom of my heart!

Seems like this model was made right at the time many carbon resistors have started failing big time nowadays. I would not be surprised if you find more that have gone way out of tolerance or just plain open circuit.

I agree Ken, thanks for the heads up.
I will be servicing the mechanism next.

Question.
My detent switch is pretty burnt, not very much contacts are left. I have new contacts on hand which are designed for use in electromechanical pinball machines. One type is a silver alloy- gold flashed and designed for lower current use. I have new contacts which are of a much harder material- tungsten faced, copper backed for high current applications. I will attach a pic of them.

Can I use the pinball contacts to rebuild the detent switch? If so, which set would you suggest?

Steve,
Original contacts were silver--not flashed, so either should work just fine--however, you will find no "mounting hole" in the blade as the contacts were fused to the blade.
Slight warning on your map--all of the TSU's may vary in different production runs as to component placement. Ron Rich

Thank you for the reply Ron. Sounds like a big hassle to get new contacts on those detent switch blades. It's on my To Do list. In the mean time I'm ready to spin some records!
Everything on the mech (Favorites counter, magazine, frame etc etc etc) was dusty/dirty/old greezy that I spent the whole day going through it. The mechanism itself didn't look too bad, and I learned what/where/how to lubricate it by going through it with the manual for some good use. I ended up removing all 160 favorite counter wheels so I could polish its shaft. There was too much friction and it prevented the reset knob from working. I used some good automotive polish on the blue mechanism metal flake paint and it's bright shiny clean.

Both needles seem to be in good shape. They are the gray ones which I think are diamond. I didn't want it to wear so I washed all 80 records last night before retiring. I removed a lot of dust/dirt from them.

Does anyone know how to remove the two glasses? Both the one on the bottom which shows the card holders and the back glass? I wouldn't mind removing the whole frame from the machine at the hinge but it looks like it isn't supposed to be removed. I have a lot of paint restore work to do before more peels and flakes off. I don't want to clean the bottom side of the clear glass because more paint will come off. I'm pretty good at touch-up but I need them removed first.

I was noticing this phono gives a nice "warm" sound. I hope to service the amp soon.
Thanks for all
-Steve