Seeburg M100C - Updated Photos - Deal Made!

Viewed it today. Would love to hear all the thoughts on if the findings below mean that approx $2k is still a good deal, and anything that sounds expensive/hard/look out for (lets leave the whole moving bit for now, until deal is made)

It works - but is not as loud as I'm sure it should be -the video here is on full volume. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RvYdEcUz0E)

Also seemed to start very quiet and get louder over 5 minutes.

First up, the caps - looks like some have been replaced (is that common to do just some) - and assume I would need to do all - does not look to bad a job to replace as not too many. (Plus volume knob missing, but did turn and work - just, as per above, not very loud)

Speaker wires were joined - normal or sign of replacement speaker (and if so, can you tell if correct one?)

Amp & whatever is next to it (sorry - said I was new to this!)

These were on both side - looks modern?

Also pilaster lighting turned very slow compared to some I see on YouTube. no big deal.
Pilaster frosting worn at top

Couple of other pics:

What I can see from photo's--
Wrong speaker--missing AVC tubes in amp (No "volume control knob" was ever issued with this model--an insert-able "key" was, and is still available, as a poor repro). It would be my opinion that this amp needs more then just a "cap kit"--. Ron Rich

In picture 2200 the credit control cover is missing. They usually go for $25 on ebay. Is the stepper underneath the cover and does the stepper work? Stepper cover is shown in picture 2200 and is used if you desire to hook up a wired remote control wall box.

Best
Darrell

Thanks Ron and Darrell. This gives me some idea onto extra $'s needed.

If the speaker is part of the problem, or I just want to bring it back to original, then they seem to be $200 on ebay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/SEEBURG-C-G-or- ... 4d3535bf8c)

While I think I could handle caps and resistors, I have no way to test tubes so I assume thats approx $300 to get a pro to check/rebuild the amp - plus I'll need those AVC tubes (although may be cheaper in long run to get complete set? I see thats $140)

Stepper - don't know, Darrell. I could ask seller to send a photo tomorrow - they did mention they have the wall box somewhere but have not found it yet. (Not something I'll use I imagine, but maybe get them to throw it in)

Any other thoughts? $2k still a decent price?

Some general thoughts on your observations and pic's.

-The speaker has been changed. the original was a field coil type. The replacement is permanent magnet. When this is done it removed a large load from the B+ power supply and the voltages go up considerably. The standard solution is to place a resistor as a dummy load across the power supply as a sub. looking at the underside of the amp, I see a large green resistor right near the 5U4 socket. This is not original and is probably the dummy load. The resistance should be approx 6k-ohm.

There is no way to tell what the type or efficiency of that replacement speaker is by the pic. Since 15" is not a commonly used size outside of musical instrument amps, it is possible that is what is in there. If so it will be efficient, but very lacking is anything above 2-3kHz. In any case, a simple addition of a crossover and tweeter is necessary to make full use of the new cart and for pleasant listening. Our perception of "good sound" has vastly improved in the intervening 60 years since this machine was built.

If you go with an original speaker, it will most likely have to be reconed and the amp mods, which may be very simple, be removed.

-Low volume. Starting with the new cart used here. The 345-03d is far superior to the original black or red head. however it's output is considerably lower. unless the preamp is modified for greater gain, maximum level will be a -bit- lower. It should not require a full-up volume control.

Weak tubes or low B+ along with an inefficient speaker can also cause low volume. I note that the bass and treble controls are not full on and this will reduce apparent volume.

It is not necessary to hire someone to test tubes. That is a waste of money and time. The tubes that directly affect gain are the 6J7, 6SN7 & 6SL7. A better use of funds is to simply buy new ones, both for test and spares. A 5U4 is a good idea too.

Given that the amp appears to have been rebuilt there is no good reason to go over it again. A few voltage readings will tell you if there are any weak areas.

If you wish to use a wallbox, the stepper will have to be serviced. It may have been done when the units were restored, but the rectangular 5Mfd cap on the right side of the unit must be replaced. NBD.

There are some other issues to consider, such as whether the tonearm has been rebalanced to accommodate the lighter cart but over-all I'd say that given this is one of the most desirable 1950's Seeburgs and has been tastefully restored (no Betty Boop or Elvis graphics) at 2K or less you have a good deal.

Rob

Well, barring acts of God, it's mine! Delivery in a week or so. Very nice sellers so I hope (this time!) no issues.

Thank you to everyone who helped me here - let's be honest, there are going to be a few more posts on this machine

Next step: delivery. Seller is a mover and will transport upright, I will ensure we follow Ron's instructions on the sticky.

Seller is going to look for any documentation. If they find nothing, what is recommended, for example:

Service Manual & Troubleshooting Guide - $67 for the two from A1 Jukeboxes?

I see I can also download the manual to the MRA3_L6 amp

Anything else to get me going?

Thanks, again!

Congrats !!
For all Seeburg models, I suggest purchasing the Service Manual PACKAGE. If sold by a "legitimate" seller, it should contain the "Information and Operation Manual" (in the case of the model C, this was called a, "Maintenance Manual"), Service, parts, and trouble shooting guide should all be included. Check with your supplier-or see the list of suppliers above--I would humbly suggest that my Seeburg Mechanism Guide, should be of help also--If you wish to purchase it PM me--There is no need to "download" anything, if the package is purchased, as it should all be contained there-in. Ron Rich

Since most of the restoration has already been done, i suggest:

1) A bottle of 20wt non-detergent oil and a small hose oiler. Here is the lube chart: http://s1192.photobucket.com/user/Rob-N ... ort=2&o=18 -Click "Download" from the "options" category.

2) A schematic to check voltages: http://www.verntisdale.com/Seeburgschem.htm

Do you have a DVM? Due to the high impedance involved in most tube stages a DVM or VTVM is essential to get accurate, non-loading readings.

Good luck.

Rob

I would check B+ first thing. If low, take a look at the green resistor that Rob mentioned. Probably the reason for low volume. I would not just "replace the tubes". A couple of reasons....."Time" does not make a tube bad. Only use. Tubes last a very long time when only used occasionally in a home. Second reason is....that is the advise people always give someone who is restoring a tube radio, amp or jukebox. A lot of good tubes have been replaced. So when it was "restored" the tubes were probably replaced..."just because".

Thanks, all. I am awaiting delivery, and to see if they find any manuals - because if not I plan to purchase the manuals so I can try at least to sound a little more informed when I (no doubt) ask questions here. There is a good post from "cutter" that gives an overview of approach, and confirms to get the following before anything:

• Seeburg Service Manual M100C
• Seeburg Installation and Operation Manual M100C
• Seeburg Mechanism Guide 2nd Edition by Ron Rich

Rob, I'll also get the oil, and have downloaded the schematics

Assuming I purchase the above manuals from, say, Victory Glass, anything else I should just order anyway, such as for the sake of $40, new needles for the Pickering (I read a post from Ron I think saying he feels these are good) ?

Any other parts that would just be common sense to replace?

Also, do I need to purchase the two missing AVC tubes - I have also read these are often removed, but not sure of the pro's and con's (except the obivous +ve point of being original and -ve for cost) ?

Once I've read and re-read the docs, I'll start with some basic leaning, lubrication, and then commence on the trickier stuff!

thanks

Max,
READ my earlier post--about 5 up, from this one.
The two tubes are for AVC operation--no "need" for it in some peoples minds, for me, I would not have anything with-out it !
Ron Rich

I agree with Ron's comment about the AGC, This is essential in commercial use. Here, you can wait till you get the low volume issue settled. As a practical matter, the new cart is considerably lower in output and won't drive the AGC very much anyway.

Rob