Phonoland

A few months back I picked up two LPC1's. One was in great shape kept indoors, and was working approximately 3 years ago, with relatively original parts. The other was pretty rough but complete, mostly disassembled, and had been kept in a damp environment and was pretty corroded. This second box was mostly for parts if anything, and I kind of recieved by chance- once I found the better unit I really did not need it as much as the newer, nicer unit. I also happen to have a full keyboard from a LPC1- but probably don't need any parts from that.

Anyhow, I got down to diagnosing the better unit. I cleaned all the dust off, cleaned the contacts, and without major disassembly cleared the gunk and old lubrication, and re-lubricated the mechanism per the manual.

Besides some minor cosmetic damage and missing display or cosmetic pieces, it seems to have a relatively common problem described in many places including Tony Miller's site, and the manual's troubleshooting area.

I also had a local repair gentleman look at the machine ($100) and similar to many people I spoke to locally, no one wants to work on these. He did some minor tinkering, and determined it could take 5-10 hours to get it to play alone, without any replacement of tubes, or capacitors that may be necessary.

"Symptom 2: When a selection is made, the mechanism scans, picks up the record, immediately rejects it, moves on to the next selection, picks it up, immediately rejects it, etc."

I first ran threw the manual's diagnostic first.. outlined on Procedure 18LPC.

Cause Mechanism or Amplifier.
1. Pull out mute squelch and note if now plays. (did not play)

If play see 1 or 2 of Amp Service. (First point of note is that I also swapped amps between the units, and received identical symptom, despite the manual pointing me towards mechanism.)
1."MT" contact of mute relay fails to open.
2. Reject button terminal shorted to ground. (During the house call, they desoldered the reject button wire on the front of the mechanism, in order to bypass it being the issue)

If no play see 33 or 34 of Mech Service Notes.
33. "MB" contact on cam fails to open before "V" closes. (I used a small wooden stir in order to block either the MB or the V contacts, the only change was being able to hear the record change noises, but the record was still rejected.)
34. "Record trips switch" fails to reset or is defective. (I believed this was the problem at this point..)

After taking a break I did some more searching and read Tony's Troubleshooting. IT seemed to steer me in another direction as outlined (paraphrased) below.

"This could be a mechanical or an electrical problem. The first thing to do is to figure out which it is. Watch how the mechanism cycles. Just to the right of the pickup arm you will see a lever, with an elongated slot. This is the trip lever, as you can see in the photo at left. It flips up each time the trip solenoid energizes, to pick up a record for play, or to put it back in the magazine once play is complete. Put your finger on this lever, and apply a light pressure in the downward direction. As the lever moves when incorrectly tripping, you may feel a buzzing on the lever. This indicates that it is an electrical problem (see the next paragraph). If there is no buzzing, it probably means that the clutch shifting lever is gummed up due to aging lubrication, and the mechanism needs to be degreased and fresh lubrication applied. "

I was able to hold this down, and at one point felt buzzing each time (mechanical vibration, not electrical zapping). This led me to believe it was a electrical problem, and my hope was I degummed all areas sufficiently.

"For electrical issues.. The mechanism trip solenoid is used to trip from scan into play and from play into scan. Thus there are two circuit paths to energize the solenoid, one for Select Trip and the other for reject (also called Mute) Trip. Generally, mechanism switch contact 3M12 (contact V in machines built prior to the LPC480) is closed in play to complete the record reject path from the amplifier's Mute/Trip Relay, for the machines using a Mute/Trip relay in the amplifier. Machines using a Mute/Trip relay include all 160-selection machines starting with the LPC1. Another switch, 3M11, is closed in Scan and Transfer to energize the Mute/Trip Relay, which mutes the amplifier so that all the clicks and pops of record transfer are not heard. If either switch is misadjusted so that both are closed at the beginning of record play, the record will reject as soon as the tonearm sets down."

I mostly understand this. It sounds like this is diagnosing the mute/trip relay in the amp.. (which I hoped to have ruled out via swapping the amps (although I am not sure if either are "functional") as well as blocking that mute contact as mentioned previously.)

Last point from Tony Miller's guide..

"Switch S1103 is the switch mounted to one side of the Pickup Arm Cradle Frame. It closes when the pickup arm reaches the lead-out groove of the record, to begin the transfer cycle to put the record back into the magazine. If this switch is shorted, or the cabling between it, the reject switch in the Volume Control Assembly, optional PRVC, or the Mute Trip Relay in the Amplifier is grounded this can occur. To check for this, turn the power off and manually put the mechanism in play with a record on the turntable. Turn the motor coupling until the pickup needle just sets down, and rotate the coupling a few turns more to insure that the mechanism is completely in play while observing the movement of the 3M12 and 3M11 contacts. Make sure that 3M11 opens before 3M12 closes. If not, perform the appropriate adjustments as listed in the mechanism manual.

I understand this the least. But it sounds like bypassing the reject button on the back may have ruled this out already? I have a hard time identifying this part, and performing this check.


Anyhow. After all that I feel like I have ruled out all my options, which logically means I have failed to rule one out properly. Any help is appreciated, please feel free to ask me for any questions or pictures.

I would love to talk threw it and hope to find a total solution. My goal is to make one of these machines mechanically/electrically sound, and then restore it and hopefully have a nice home piece that will run for a while!

Thanks

John

Hi, John, if you have checked everything else check the mute switch inside the amp if the contacts have been messed with ie bent it could be that. Try holding the contacts in the play position with a small electrical screwdriver. IMEDIATLY AFTER MAKING YOUR SELECTION, if the record no longer rejects straight away your prob could be in the mute switch.

That is contacts seen here circled in orange correct?

Yep that's it concealed in the can in the amp. it is just that I came across the same problem just yesterday, and traced the fault of rejecting the record straight away. To bent contacts on mute switch relay on a TSA-5 amp. I'm not saying yours is the same fix it could be a number of things like it states in the guide.

I can't positively ID that item on my board (this is the better board, with the front oriented left.)

Based on the diagram it seems like it could be (under?) the left bottom rectangular black box which is immediately right of the silver metal cylinder with black tape on the far bottom left.



Thanks for clarifying. I am digging thru the diagram now.

Re-reading I removed the can, and realise there is no way inside of it. It is INSIDE the metal can pictured with black tape? OR is it concealed under it?

If it is inside of the can, how do i fix this? (I am assuming the other amp I have, which is in worse shape, has the same problem, since swapping the entire amp shows no change in result)

Exploratory surgery helped me figure that out. It is in the can, as I should have realised. The tape held it shut.

I was/am uploading pictures of this contact. I am going to very carefully clean it and test. I assume it is safe to operate with this in position minus the body of the can?

Hi John,
PLEASE, don't re-post long quotes from anywhere, here--it just takes to long to read all that--
There is an easier way to determine if you have a mechanical, or electrical problem. Simply remove the small "mute"(or, may be marked "Mech") plug from the amp--make a selection, and if it plays, you have an electrical problem. If not, it is a mechanical problem. Ron Rich

Yep you found it, looks ok to me , (not bent) you can operate the mech no prob with the cover removed but I would bolt it back onto the chassis. to do this. and Ron is right about the plug. if the other amp is doing the same then I would look to the mech.

Thanks. Sorry Ron, I was trying to give as much information as possible in regards to what I have done.

I examined the mute switch for a while and tried to manipulate it in both positions- no change. However now it is not always picking up a record after a selection is made- so I may have created a new problem somewhere.

Ron- This was one of the first things I did as instructed by the guide. Which leads me to believe I have a mechanical problem.

Where do I go from there? I have the cover off the machine, and have sprayed it all liberally with WD40 to penetrate the old grime- cleaned it all up, and then I re-oiled with mechanical motor oil. I cannot identify anything getting stuck or being non responsive at this point.

Oh NO not WD40.

I had re-oiled the mech, but the guys yesterday used WD40 to penetrate, then told me to re oil later with 3-1 motor SAE 20. Wasn't much I could do at that point.

Well as long as you did not spray it everywhere, no where near contacts, or solenoids. if you did these will have to be cleaned. the 3 in 1 oil you used is fine.

IMHO:
1.You can not operate that, nor any other Seeburg amp that uses that relay with-out the can, for any length of time--It will quickly "get dirty" !
2, I agree that WD-40is a no-no, within 50 feet of any phonograph ! I think you will need to wash the mech--totally, at this point, if you ever want it to be reliable.
3.You should un-plug the phono, obtain ( if you do not have) a copy of the Service Manual PACKAGE, and read it, before doing any further damage. Also, IMHO, a copy of my "Seeburg Mechanism Guide", should be of help. (PM me, if you wish to purchase one). Ron Rich

Hi, Ron, sorry I should have said to replace the can after he had observed that the contacts where working correctly. And yes John you could save a lot of time reading and replying to messages if you had one of Ron's mechanism guides and gain a lot of knowledge from it to be able to advise others, Ron's guide is written from experience not from a Seeburg manual. You can sit as many exams as you like on any subject pass them and qualify to be what ever. but at the end of the day qualifications mean jack shit compared to experience.