identifying old phonograph

Hi everyone, I have acquired my 3 phonograph recently but it has absolutely no markings on it whatsoever anywhere. I am attaching two pics, one of the machine itself and the other of the motor. I own 17 old radio's that I repaired myself (with help from my club members) but I am not an expert at mechanical motors and the motor on this one does not work. Looks like a spring attached to the crank on the motor plate is broken away from a hole in the plate itself... Any help is appreciated...thanks Cliff....

Just a little FYI on those wind-up players.
There's been a flood of them coming from places in india - knock-offs that are mainly junk made from broken sets.
A clue is the horn bracket assembly and pivot - it's flimsy and cheap.
Another is the 'no-name' brand.

I hope yours isn't of this variety.

Matt:

I couldn't agree more. The Indian/Chinese made crap-o-phones are easy to spot because they normally all use the same types of components.

In addition to crap-o-phones, you have what collectors call "Frankenphones." They are gramophones that use cabinet and parts--authentic to the period--that were culled from different machines. Some are very convincing.

Unfortunately, it's often hard to tell when a Swiss made gramophone, or some other European model, is involved. The Swiss gramophone industry specialized in supplying components--tonearms, motors, sound boxes, etc. -- which were used in off brand or budget models sold throughout the North American and European markets. Oftentimes, the cases bear no brand name or markings.

To add to the confusion, Swiss made motors were also fitted into quality phonographs sold by second tier companies in the US market. Sonora is a good example --


http://books.google.com/books?id=LIU3AQ ... 22&f=false

I have an unbranded chrome-plated portable gramophone--all original. It uses an American made case fitted with Swiss made components. Interestingly, I found out that it was considered a high quality phonograph in it's day. It was sold by some of the major department stores in the 1930s, such as Macys.

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Lugnutt,

Would it be possible to post some photos of the back of the gramophone, as well as a close-up of the turntable, reproducer, crank, and other components? From time to time some of the British and European collectors visit this forum, and they are quite knowledgeable about these models.

Joe

Joe I sure can, does the motor look familiar in the pic I posted? The turntable plate is cast iron and the back bracket is to. I think it's old but my hunch is the motor us not original but I am far from knowledgeable, just an educated guess.. I'll post more pics...

Joe DS, I dunno, but something smells fishy about that old cranker.
The wood finish looks "antique-ized" to me. - brush strokes in the finish to make it "look" old?

I'm certainly no expert and is why I am here but the parts look and feel quite old. My hunch based on the motor is this might be a pieced together set. In any event, I'd like to repair the motor and make it work. It was a free unit to me so I've lost nothing... The motor will not work and I noticed what appears to be a spring on the crank mechanism attached to the plate that appears to have broken away from a hole in the plate but I'm not sure...

The wood top is broken down the middle as well and appears to have been refinished, albeit , very poorly...Also, the horn has a lot of messy spot weld spots and splatter...the mirrors are also not original, if of course, the unit is authentic itself. I've seen a similar unit with smoke glass on the net.

I'm afraid, based on the components I see, that this is a Frankenphone, described above.

For starters, the tonearm and sound box are from around 1930. The dead giveaway for the tonearm is it's continuous swan neck taper, indicating that it was manufactured AFTER electrical recording and exponential horn theories were introduced in the mid-1920s. The sound box, likewise, looks to have an aluminum diaphragm. With it's protective front plate, it's very similar in style to the Thorens sound boxes manufactured during the early to mid 1930s and used on a number of portables produced during this era. In most cases, sound boxes produced during the era of the outside horn gramophone were fitted with mica diaphragms that had no protective covering or front plate.

I'm not sure about the turntable, but it's similar to those used on late 1920s Columbia models. The back horn support is the exact type used on the Indian and Chinese "reproduction" gramophones, however.

The case and other components, including the horn, may or may not be from an outside horn gramophone. I've seen quite a few authentic looking cabinets made out of old wood salvaged from other furniture, so it's hard to tell.

HTH,
Joe

I think the motor is a Thorens as well.... One of my friends is a dentist and an older patient gave this to him as a gift and he in turn gave it to me... Can you tell me if the crank mechanism on the motor (it has a spring on the shaft) attaches to the top plate (there is a hole just above where the spring is broke)? Thanks for all your help,,,,, I still love it....No question about it now...It is not original but how much of it is fake parts?

more pics

I'm afraid I don't have much to contribute, when it comes to motor repairs. The typical Thorens motor used a pillar and plate assembly, as shown in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qO9JuE2m1g

In the photos you provided, the top plate, and two support or stabilizing columns are not show. I believe that the winding shaft was controlled by spring tension, and that the spring attaches to the plate.

You might want to get in touch with George Vollema at Great Lakes Antique Phonograph -- http://www.victroladoctor.com/ He'd probably be able to tell what's what, or what the best course would be to follow. If parts are missing, or need replacing, you might find it cheaper just to acquire another motor. Quite number of usable Swiss made (and other types) of gramophone motors have come up for sale on sites such as eBay.

I keep forgetting to mention, and forgive me if you already know this, but when you finally get it running, make sure you play records with the tonearm positioned on the other side, or right side, of the spindle, unlike what is shown in your top photo. As the record spins, the groove should move AWAY from the needle's tip, not into it. I say this because I've seen dozens and dozens of YouTube videos of acoustic phonographs where the records are played with the tonearm on the wrong side. After a couple of plays, the record groove will start to break down.

JDS

You've been a big help, thanks much, and while I actually have the reproducer off, I didn't know that and will play my sizable collection accordingly. I know for sure after our discussion that the tension spring tip is broken from the top plate as well. It might work if I can manage to find and remove/replace this one with a spec spring... Thank you again,

Cliff Poe
Bham, Al

Just an FYI, was just reading about so called "crap-o-phono's... This has several real signs of it... An outside horn with a Thorens motor is questionable, glass sides a big indicator, filled in holes (actually old piece but reused where it doesn't belong), metal covered reproducer, etc.... I think it's pieced together with this and that and probably has fake parts in it to... It was free and I still like it... Hope I can make it run....

Beyond any doubt this machine is a complete Frankenphone and bears little resemblance to any original machine. There are some "vintage" parts, of course, and I note it was a freebie anyway, so no harm has been done to the present owner or his wallet!