HF100G won't cancel selection pins

HI all: We are working on a 100g. Recapped WSR and have one related problem and one not.
the cancell solenoids do not fire so it plays the same selections over and over. I traced the circuit through the reverse switch, reset lever switch, and to the cam switch.
i get 25v at all switches. i do not believe that there is solenoid trouble as neither one fires and the popularity does not either. I used Rons mech book and the service manual so far. i am not sure at which end of the solenoid i can ground to get it to fire manualy. Need some help on this one.
The other problem is after recapp, the credit unit works fine and the latch solenoid does too so you can maka a selection, it does not activate any pins on the pin bank. I was more concerned with the cancel issue so did not spend a lot of time on this problem.
We have 2 G's so we swapped the WSR's just to make sure, and also swapped out a known good 2050 tube as well. Thanks Mark

Hi Mark,
The cancel/pop meter coils (should) have "25" volts AC on the at all times. The "ground" is provided thru the C-SC switches. It is provided directly to the pop meter, and ONE, or the other, of the cancel coils, thru the reversing switch. Since the pop meter is not firing, I would assume that the S-SC switches are either "dirty", or incorrectly adjusted (see the service manual for proper adjustments). The 2050 tube can be ( and I suggest it should be), removed--it is only used to activate the "stepper", when a wallbox is connected to the system.
On the SA unit failing to move the pins--is the group relay, energizing when a selection is made ? Is the "CCU fuse" good, and less than 2 amps ( I hope !!!) ? ( NOTE to all, some of the early specs called for a 2 amp fuse--this fuse will NOT protect coils, in all instances. Seeburg changed the spec. to a 1 amp fuse, but in some instances, this will not hold (timing relay and all other "point adjustments", are critical here). I recommend a 1.6 amp slo blo be used in this position, as I have yet to see a "fried coil" when this value fuse was used. HTH, Ron Rich

Ron

My receiver is marked A=3Amp, B= 5Amp and C=1 Amp.

You state "Is the "CCU fuse"" and "Seeburg changed the spec. to a 1 amp fuse, but in some instances, this will not hold (timing relay and all other "point adjustments", are critical here). I recommend a 1.6 amp slo blo be used in this position".

Are you referring to the "C= 1 AMP " on the receiver?

Best
Darrell

H Darrell,
Yezzir ! I shooda said a 1.6 is the MAXIMUM value I recommend there--lower, the better (1.0 to 1.6)--
And BTW--now that you have "jogged my memory"--the "B" fuse varies by which model phonograph, the WSR is installed into--
That's why the label is a "paper" type--Ron Rich

Ron

That fuse was blown (Buss C04). Replaced with 1.6 Slo Blo and mech now moves on its own. The selection keys still do not make a selection and the pins still do not cancel after the record plays.

On to the S-SC switchs.

Best
Darrell

Darrell,
Woah---what do you mean by "the mech now moves on it's own" and what size WAS, that (blown) fuse ?
The mech moving, and that fuse, have no relationship ?
Ron

Ron

The only markings I can find on the fuse are "Buss C4", I do not find an AMP rating?

Not clear, sorry. Mech for the most part moves on it's own when it gets done playing a record. Prior to this I applied light pressure to get the mech to move to the next slot. This is only true when the "A" side is being played and the scan is from left to right, When playing "B" sides it always moves to the next slot without any assistance.

Best
Darrell

Hi Darrell,
I dono what "C4" could be--anyway, you have the correct one in there now--
Still not clear what you mean in regards to "moving". Is the motor stopping,is the turn table turning, without the clutch going into the play notch, is it re-tripping on the same space ?
And--unless I missed it, you have not told me if the group relay is being energized, or not ? Ron Rich

Ron

It is tripping in the same location when moving left to right, most of the time. If I apply light pressure to asist the mech it then moves to the next selected record.

The mech does not do this when moving right to left, it will play a record, put it back and move to the next selcted record.

The clutch has been cleaned and lubricated and the records are not warped.

Trying to find "group relay" in manuals as I am unsure which relay you are referring to? Do you mean the "group step relay" in the receiver? If this is what you mean, I do not see them operating at any point of the record selection, playing and trip off cycle.

Best
Darrell

Hi Darrell,
The tripping over, and over, problem indicates a mal-adjusted in the SA Unit, or the "frog" that rides below it--
I should have been more precise--group magnet assembly, in the SA Unit---
Ron Rich

Hi all: Thanks Ron, Your information on where to proceed on the cancel system was right on. The bad switch was closed and would carry voltage but not load, it was fooling me on the voltage test. I grounded out the circuit and got the pop meter to kick, and followed it till i got nothing. It now handles read out side perfectly.
Now for the other problem. Darrell found that the fuse he pulled was AGC4. A 4 amp fuse. I will probably show my ignorance and ask some dumb questions. I am trying to understand how the keyboard communicates with the WSR and ultimatly the pin bank. The 2 G's we have are only the 2nd Seeburg pin bank types I have worked on as everything else uses a tormat. Ron sugested checking the Group Relay. The only group relay i have found in the WSR is on the stepper. The manual says that the stepper is only activated by a wallbox. That is where i am confused. Unless I am reading it wrong, the schematic for the WSR seems to show the input from the "electrical selector" being wired pin for pin to the "selector coil assembly" plug. So how does this work? The "electrical selector" seems to work correctly to take selections. How is the 4 amp fuse in the 1 amp place going to affect things? I am afraid that something is cooked but need help to find it. Thanks Mark

Mark,
The "group relays" are in the pin memory unit. There are five (IIRC). The are simply a large coil that pulls down a set of contacts simultaneously to complete the circuit to ground of an entire group of individual coils that activate the selection pins. The pin memory is broken up into five groups of twenty coils each that punch the selection pins.

A letter button completes the first part of the circuit to all of the same letter. the number button completes a similar circuit to a group relay. Only when the "hot" pin coil is in the group where that group coil has also been selected will the entire circuit be completed and the desired pin punched.

I've simplified it a bit for clarity as on the 100's it is not all letters on letters and numbers on groups. But the concept is what I described.

To further illustrate; if a group relay were held down continuously a letter in that group will always punch along with the desired selection in an entirely different group.

If the too-large fuse is the one protected the pin memory -that is not a good sign. This can be both symptom and cause of burned/shorted coils that have drawn too much current and put the machine out of order. Unfortunately, this is fairly common on these old machines. The good news here is that the individual coils are available and cheap, or you can rewind them yourself (I did). Taking the memory apart can be a pain and there are specific steps to avoid getting po'ed at the process. A manual is a good idea here -but experience and common sense helps too.

These E-M machine are a bit before my era-of-interest so I've only owned a Bl-JL and R back in the late-80's.. So not currently familiar with the internals of the selection systems.

Rob/NYC

Morning

Hooked up a WOM and the WOM makes selections without any problems. Problem is not in the pin bank. Keyboard selections still do not work.

Best
Darrell

Afternoon,
Well, that leaves the ES and the CCU as suspects---
Later switch/plug open-??-timing relay or "write in" (SU) contacts in CCU--??
Ron Rich

More thanks going out to Rob. Now for more understanding. We followed the power flow from the timing relay and cancel relay, through the U switch. We went all the way to the keyboard. I got a pulse at both the orange/blue, as well as the orange/brown wires on either end of the letter selection bank, as the cancel solenoid engaged.
Do I now understand that the power goes through the key switches and then straight to the jones plug on the WSR?
We have found the key switches are having problems. Is this a common problem on these machines? it was reletivly clean and did not expect to have multiple keys out.
What is the best way to clean the key switches? we have De-oxit, but would like to know what you experts use. is there a mechanical way to reach the brass sliders in the key switches?
Ok one more problem. the first few pins on the lower end of the pin bank will not begin scan. If a higher pin is selected, scan starts, it will stop at all pins and play. I will admit that I have not searched the manual for this problem yet as i was working on the others. What is the adjustment to perform? Or at least what page of the manual is it on?