Phonoland

Posted: **Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:42 am**

Julie,
My great, but not too long, memory just came up with a sorta explanation of the 33 rpm switch--It is closed only just after the clamp arm senses a small hole record--The rest of that operation is the coil is energized at the time the switch is closed ( and the lamp is lit), long enough for the idler wheel to shift from the 45 rpm position to the 33 position. This is why the wheel is lifted from the motor , when the record is removed from the turntable. If the wheel was not lifted, the coil could not change the wheel's position . ALL of this IS related to THAT spring--- Ron Rich

Posted: **Thu Feb 11, 2016 10:32 am**

Ron, that spring is not that critical. All that it does is provide just enough force to pull the idler into contact with the motor shaft. I don't believe it would have any effect on the clamping problem......I hope :-)

Julie, I know I'll rightly be accused of Gepetto-ism here but, till you get a proper spring just use an edge cutter and remove a damaged turn or two and form a hook to attach that mangled spring onto the post Again, not too tight -just enough.

I tried a small hole record, clamps and release perfectly......

Yep, that is what I figured would happen. The way to begin a practical understanding of that section's operations is to have it bring up a record and then shut off the power and slowly operate the cam by hand and observe what-dies-what.

Personally, I suspect that the stripper lever is mistimed and interfering with the extension of the pilot. The operation here is a lot different from the 45 only machines where the pilot emerges fully and remains whether there is any record or not. On these dual speed models it emerges and if it blocked by a small hole record the lever switch is operated and causes the speed transfer to 33rpm. Due to the fact that the clamp for a small hole record record is actually outward of where a 45 is clamped the pilot must extend then retract to pull in order to clamp a 33.

To be clear, the pilot will emerge then begin to retract fully unless stopped by the clamping of a record.. That is fundamentally different from the old design.

For some reason, the pilot is not extending fully. You mentioned that something was loose and possibly out of adjustment on the rear of the turntable shaft. That is where this sort of thing can foul up. So double check it with the service manual.

Also, when a 45 is brought up and just as the pilot emerges stop the mech and see if the record hole is slightly low but centered so that it will be lifted and clamped properly. Try to look straight-on from the front.

The sensing of the hole size and determining how to clamp the record is totally mechanical, The speed shift is electrical and mechanical. That is why i suggested removing the small bulb so that things won't be further complicated by the speed shifting.

Sorry for writing another tome but without having the machine in front of me (where I wouldn't talk at all) I have to try and 'splain the operation as best i can. It is kinda fun to remember all this stuff decades later.

Rob

Posted: **Thu Feb 11, 2016 5:27 pm**

Hi Rob,
I did not mean to imply that the spring was connected to the clamping operation, in any way, other then my recall that the idler wheel was retracted from the motor, as a record was released, and "pulled" back, to the motor shaft as a record was clamped. Memory is very "foggy" on this-- Ron Rich

Posted: **Fri Feb 12, 2016 2:06 am**

Personally, I suspect that the stripper lever is mistimed and interfering with the extension of the pilot. The operation here is a lot different from the 45 only machines where the pilot emerges fully and remains whether there is any record or not. On these dual speed models it emerges and if it blocked by a small hole record the lever switch is operated and causes the speed transfer to 33rpm. Due to the fact that the clamp for a small hole record record is actually outward of where a 45 is clamped the pilot must extend then retract to pull in order to clamp a 33.
For some reason, the pilot is not extending fully. You mentioned that something was loose and possibly out of adjustment on the rear of the turntable shaft. That is where this sort of thing can foul up. So double check it with the service manual.

Hi Rob,
I did few tests as per your comments
- I adjusted the pilot exactly flush to the turntable as they say in the manual and while the clamping action occurs, I ''helped'' the Roller part of the release arm cam in its movement forward, it maybe goes a bit further like that and it clamps everytime... When I push it seems/ feels sticky? I dont know how else to explain it.. Could this action make the pilot extend to its full? ANd how can I make do that by itself..

Sorry for writing another tome but without having the machine in front of me (where I wouldn't talk at all) I have to try and 'splain the operation as best i can. It is kinda fun to remember all this stuff decades later.
Rob

No Rob, please do write tomes!!!

I need all the explanations I can get ( and if being noob was not enough I am a from Québec so my English is so so

)
But I won't give up on my juke !!!!!!

I will continue tomorrow and try to understand the Stripper lever timing and also try to measure the distance from the adjusting plate like they say in the manual
Thanks again!!

Posted: **Fri Feb 12, 2016 2:20 am**

Hi Julie,
Your "English" is fine--better than some of the postings from Jolly Old England, I have seen here !
You mentioned "sticky"-- are the rollers on the small cam that is operated by the large wire rope "spinning", or are they stuck--If left stuck, for a long time, they develop flat spots, which change the amount of movement of that cam follower that operates the record clamp unit.
Have you loaded the "hole" in the center of the turntable shaft with oil-several times--do so again, and operate that clamp by pushing it manually and allowing it to "snap back", several times--see if that removes some, or all, of the sticky" ??
Ron Rich

Posted: **Sat Feb 13, 2016 10:15 pm**

Ron Rich wrote:Hi Julie,
Your "English" is fine--better than some of the postings from Jolly Old England, I have seen here !
You mentioned "sticky"-- are the rollers on the small cam that is operated by the large wire rope "spinning", or are they stuck--If left stuck, for a long time, they develop flat spots, which change the amount of movement of that cam follower that operates the record clamp unit.
Hi Ron!
I have filmed what a do to help the cam in many angles as there a rollers a 3 places that I see, maybe you can direct me to the ones you are mentionning and if you see something wrong?
Have you loaded the "hole" in the center of the turntable shaft with oil-several times--do so again, and operate that clamp by pushing it manually and allowing it to "snap back", several times--see if that removes some, or all, of the sticky" ??
Ron Rich

Yes everytime I go downstairs to try and work on it I oïl it

I have tweeked the spring the Rob way

, still misses a bit of tension, I will correct that Geppeto!

Here are the links
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zkwrv7bLxBc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eR6mTwOsmxM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wi7t1spuICc
Thanks again!

And glad to know you guys can understand what I write

Posted: **Sat Feb 13, 2016 10:29 pm**

Hi Julie,
The last vid shows the two rollers I was thinking of--
Looks/sounds like the phono is working OK now ??
Ron Rich

Posted: **Sat Feb 13, 2016 10:46 pm**

Ron Rich wrote:Hi Julie,
The last vid shows the two rollers I was thinking of--
Looks/sounds like the phono is working OK now ??
Ron Rich

I have put a new needle on , the tonearm retracts to early, before the song ends, but that must be in the manual in the tonearm adjustments.
Gepettoed the spring again, speed seems ok hahaha
The only thing remaining it the clamping ... If I dont help pushing the assy, it does not clamp..
I just did anoter video of when I do not push on the roller assy (then the record does not clamp) Maybe you'll see something wrong with the rollers?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gfp5Rqm_Mbo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuWyikUTg3g

Posted: **Sat Feb 13, 2016 10:53 pm**

Personally, I suspect that the stripper lever is mistimed and interfering with the extension of the pilot. The operation here is a lot different from the 45 only machines where the pilot emerges fully and remains whether there is any record or not. On these dual speed models it emerges and if it blocked by a small hole record the lever switch is operated and causes the speed transfer to 33rpm. Due to the fact that the clamp for a small hole record record is actually outward of where a 45 is clamped the pilot must extend then retract to pull in order to clamp a 33.
Rob

Hi Rob, I did some new videos showing the assy when I push it and when I don't, like I said to Ron, if you see something obvious on why it does not clamp by itself...
Otherwise I geppetoed the spring some more and speed seems ok

Posted: **Sun Feb 14, 2016 7:29 am**

Ok, this video answers it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gfp5Rqm_Mbo

The 45 pilot is not being driven forward enough. I was wrong about the stripper lever (couldn't see its action previously).

Go to Pg59 on the PDF and carefully adjust item 11 "adjusting plate" (fig 26) to move the pilot slightly forward. This can be done in the at rest mode and go slowly, There is a setscrew inside the rear spring.

I don't know why this would have gotten out of whack, The cam rollers look OK Perhaps the setscrew got loose?...or someone tinkered with it. These are very stable mechanisms and normally never need anything other than washing, lubing and a little TLC. The only thing i can think of here, other than tinkering, is that someone slightly bent the stripper plate outward for some reason. Anyway, the adjustment will take care of it.

It has been a 'gas" (there is a term from my parent's days) going over these mechs again after 26 years.

The first dual speed Wurlitzer I bought was a 2900 that was "stored" in a barn in Penn. It came complete with past critter infestation, broken dome and front glass and a coating of filth that made it barely discernible. I almost turned it down but the old fellow cut the price to $25 and it was intact internally. No one in their right mind would have taken it..so I did. After 12 hours of dissassembly, washing with stripper and a lot of hot water I could at least begin to restore it. Incredibly, the plating on the keyboard was only slightly pitted and within 5-6 days it was playing and after another week it was delivered to my dealer. I had a plastic formed to replace the dome and the front "Wurlitzer" glass was bought NOS from a dealer in Co. Back then there was no internet to speak-of so you used Rick Botts' Jukebox Collector and a lot of long distance calls to find parts.

After that one came:
2600
2710 (100 sel)
2810
2900 -as above
3000
3110 (100 sel)
3200

Once you have the last of the bugs out a thorough lubrication is a must and amp testing and possible recapping along with a new pickup will probably be on the agenda.

Rob

Posted: **Sun Feb 14, 2016 4:39 pm**

Rob-NYC wrote:Ok, this video answers it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gfp5Rqm_Mbo

The 45 pilot is not being driven forward enough. I was wrong about the stripper lever (couldn't see its action previously).

Go to Pg59 on the PDF and carefully adjust item 11 "adjusting plate" (fig 26) to move the pilot slightly forward. This can be done in the at rest mode and go slowly, There is a setscrew inside the rear spring.

I don't know why this would have gotten out of whack, The cam rollers look OK Perhaps the setscrew got loose?...or someone tinkered with it. These are very stable mechanisms and normally never need anything other than washing, lubing and a little TLC. The only thing i can think of here, other than tinkering, is that someone slightly bent the stripper plate outward for some reason. Anyway, the adjustment will take care of it.

Hi Rob,
Yes in previous post I mentioned that this bolt was loose, totally unscrewed from the rod. I screwed it back on, but when it was finally clamping, it was not unclamping afterwards, The record would stay stuck and not go down
I guess I will have to find the perfect adjustments so it clamps AND unclamps. It is hard to adjust this without the small hole pilot to be out and not flush as they say in the manual

It has been a 'gas" (there is a term from my parent's days) going over these mechs again after 26 years.

The first dual speed Wurlitzer I bought was a 2900 that was "stored" in a barn in Penn. It came complete with past critter infestation, broken dome and front glass and a coating of filth that made it barely discernible. I almost turned it down but the old fellow cut the price to $25 and it was intact internally. No one in their right mind would have taken it..so I did. After 12 hours of dissassembly, washing with stripper and a lot of hot water I could at least begin to restore it. Incredibly, the plating on the keyboard was only slightly pitted and within 5-6 days it was playing and after another week it was delivered to my dealer. I had a plastic formed to replace the dome and the front "Wurlitzer" glass was bought NOS from a dealer in Co. Back then there was no internet to speak-of so you used Rick Botts' Jukebox Collector and a lot of long distance calls to find parts.

After that one came:
2600
2710 (100 sel)
2810
2900 -as above
3000
3110 (100 sel)
3200

Once you have the last of the bugs out a thorough lubrication is a must and amp testing and possible recapping along with a new pickup will probably be on the agenda.

Rob

[quote]
Wow...You know your Wurlitzers! It was a luck for me too as it came with almost 100 45records with it. 75$ for it was perfect for my budget

I would have paid this only for the records. I do not plan to have another one but...you never know do ya

With all you guys have tought me until now I might start to like this hahahaha! And you were right it is not a pile of sh... at all!
You offered earlier on to pinpoint oiling points so I will take this offer

I do not want to oïl where not necessary / recommended.
I will now go and try to adjust, again, that screw and let you know!
Thanks !!!

Posted: **Sun Feb 14, 2016 7:31 pm**

0070julie wrote:
Rob-NYC wrote:Ok, this video answers it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gfp5Rqm_Mbo

The 45 pilot is not being driven forward enough. I was wrong about the stripper lever (couldn't see its action previously).

Go to Pg59 on the PDF and carefully adjust item 11 "adjusting plate" (fig 26) to move the pilot slightly forward. This can be done in the at rest mode and go slowly, There is a setscrew inside the rear spring.

I don't know why this would have gotten out of whack, The cam rollers look OK Perhaps the setscrew got loose?...or someone tinkered with it. These are very stable mechanisms and normally never need anything other than washing, lubing and a little TLC. The only thing i can think of here, other than tinkering, is that someone slightly bent the stripper plate outward for some reason. Anyway, the adjustment will take care of it.

............. I think I know now why the expression ''We are screwed'' exists in English.......screws seem to be the mother of all my jukebox issues......
I saw a screw on the cam assy that caught my eye, as the star shape looked used...So I said to myself, this must do something?
Turns out that this @?%$& screw (Number 17 on the manual's pic)changes everything in the adjustmentsof the small hole pilot coming out of the turntable.....
Before that screw, everytime I was able to make records clamp, they would not Unclamp afterwards.

SO it seems that if I adjust both of these I will be able to find the ''Middle'' so that my adjusting plate is not to unscrewed to the point of the bolt in the spring falling off to be able to clamp (as this was the case when I tried before)
Now what I need to do is to find the correct adjustment with number 11 adjusting plate so that my record clamps and then use that screw (17) to correctly release the record somehow
It will be hours of fun...

Does this make any sense to you guys, am I on the right track here?
Thanks!!

Posted: **Sun Feb 14, 2016 8:41 pm**

Hi Julie,
At this point, you know more abut this then me ! Attsa why I always say: "if it ain't broke, DON'T fix, nor adjust it" !!
Ron Rich

Posted: **Mon Feb 15, 2016 12:30 am**

Ron Rich wrote:Hi Julie,
At this point, you know more abut this then me ! Attsa why I always say: "if it ain't broke, DON'T fix, nor adjust it" !!
Ron Rich

I know it is the first law of electronics

I might just create a new one... Don't screw with the screws..... That poor previous owner sure did try a lot of adjustments, that bolt that was unscrewed completely and the broken screw etc screw this and screw that

I am still trying the fine tune these screws so the records clamp and unclamp. The tips of all my fingers hurt like hell hahaha a bolt Under a spring ya know?

Posted: **Mon Feb 15, 2016 1:13 am**

Once you have the last of the bugs out a thorough lubrication is a must and amp testing and possible recapping along with a new pickup will probably be on the agenda.

Rob[/quote]
The tips of my fingers are all hurting from trying to sdjust the damn bolt Under the spring, I did find an adjutments that seems to work....

Dear god...hope it lasts! hahaha
Like I wrote on YouTube Ron, Rob thank you guys so much for all your help and support AND Patience most of all hahaha Newbie here was really a noob at all this before entering this awesome forum
Still have to adjust the tonearm a bit as it stops a few turns before the end of the song, I start another tread for this

Hope you are still there

Happy Valentine's day Have fun you guys

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BpSSxrzZqo

Phonoland

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