Edison Diamond Disc

Has anyone noticed that the reproduction diaphragms for Edison Diamond Disc reproducers sounds like it is vibrating on high frequencies. Does anyone know where to find good original diaphragms or reproductions for Edison Diamond Disc. Most of the originals seem to have a broken link.

Hi Joe,
I don't think any of the new diaphragms on the market are quite up to scratch with the originals. They all seem to have some problem with either sound quality or volume.
You might find an original on ebay, in a reproducer missing the stylus or weight etc, but it's still a bit hit & miss as to whether the diaphragm will be perfect.

Have you tried tuning the reproducer to see if you can get the blasting to a minimum?

I was able to replace the silk thread on an original, but it's very fiddly work. I couldn't reuse the metal ends from the silk & had to make them, using the needle which comes with the seringe in some cartridge refill inks. I found the same type of thread used, on a cheap tassle in a chinese junk shop. The worst part really was removing the linkage from the ivory button on the top of the diaphragm.

I think the main problem with the repro diaphragms is that they lack the irory button, and have the thread connected directly to the diaphragm. I think it needs to have the button decreasing the air space in the throat of the reproducer to give that special "punch" to the music that modern ones seem to have lost.

The best sounding Edison Diamond Disc phonographs I've ever heard were those fitted with a replacement diaphragm designed by the late Bob Waltrip. Those who knew Bob may point out that some of his ideas about replacement diaphragms were eccentric. While many far exceeded the performance of the originals, others produced just the opposite results. But in the case of his "Waltrip Wonder-tone" Diamond Disc diaphragm, he seems to have hit the mark. Not only did they have a nice sonic punch, but there was no break-up or distortion. In fact, they seemed to expand the sonic range of Diamond Disc records.

According to what Bob wrote me, years ago, he took a good look at the way the original rice-paper/cork dampened diaphragm was designed, it's overall texture, what it sounded like when rubbed, weight, etc., and concluded that styrofoam --the type used for meat trays--would be the best replacement, PROVIDING it was properly shaped and gasketed. (This conclusion was reached after numerous unsuccessful attempts Bob made to create a diaphragm from scratch, using rice-paper and cork rings.)

Bob experimented with a number of sample styrofoam diaphragms and found that in order to perform correctly, the diaphragm's edge (circumference) had to be as flat as possible, while the center portion of the diaphragm increased in thickness to about 1/3 inch--directly in the center. This, he said, allowed a greater area of the diaphragm to plunge--much like an Orthophonic spider-driven diaphragm is designed to. Bob, in fact, told me that this was the purpose of the ceramic center used in the original Edison diaphragm--low in mass, but totally resistant to compression. (Welch and Read also cover this point in "From Tinfoil to Stereo," in their comprehensive review of the Edison Diamond Disc phonograph, though they go beyond this by saying that the "Theory of Matched Impedance" applies more to the Edison Diamond Disc reproducer than to the Victor Orthophonic sound box!)

To shape the diaphragm, Bob used a simple method of heating a (properly sized) cup (using boiling water) and pressing its bottom onto the styrofoam until it held it's shape. He then mounted the diaphragm in the reproducer shell using a small amount of non-hardening silicone calk in place of gaskets. A tiny drop of calk was also used to seal the center where the silk linkage thread was inserted. Bob insisted that the diaphragm should not be clamped too tightly; nothing, in other words, should be done to restrict it's ability to plunge up and down.

I'm not sure if any of these Waltrip Wonder-tones still exist, but if so, it would be interesting to hear from collectors concerning how well they've stood the test of time.

Hi,

I remember reading alot about Mr. Waltrip back when I first got into collecting and reading trade magazines in 1993.

Last I read Mr. Waltrip was working on developing the kind of diaphragm you were talking about. I am wondering if he had any extra ones, maybe around that were not sold? Who knows. I bought one from a dealer a joke....it was like red cardboard with a fake brown cardboard in center with a string looped around with glue.....what a mess.

wallyworld wrote:Hi,

I remember reading alot about Mr. Waltrip back when I first got into collecting and reading trade magazines in 1993.

Last I read Mr. Waltrip was working on developing the kind of diaphragm you were talking about. I am wondering if he had any extra ones, maybe around that were not sold? Who knows. I bought one from a dealer a joke....it was like red cardboard with a fake brown cardboard in center with a string looped around with glue.....what a mess.

Hi Wally:

Yes, that would be about the timeframe. I know that Bob died about ten years ago.

I've listened to one of the "cardboard" diaphragms installed in a phonograph owned by a local collector. That was a couple of years ago. Interestingly, it sounded quite good, but I think that the owner of the machine may have done some tweaking by carefully adjusting the tension of the gasket support rings--not sure. I remember that I detected some breakup in the upper frequencies, but was not sure if that was due to record wear or distortion caused by the diaphragm, itself. Certainly, there was more surface noise than either an original DD diaphragm, or the one that Waltrip designed.

It seems to me that if cardboard was the best material to use, Edison would have used cardboard instead of the complicated rice-paper, cork-dampened diaphragm. According to what I've read on other posting boards, thousands of (trial and error) experiments were carried out in the Edison laboratory to develop the most suitable diaphragm material for the Diamond Disc phonograph.

I have designed a Edison Diaphragm for disc machines that uses at least for now, a vinyl disc with cork similar to edisons and a floss link. I know some purest including myself have not been crazy about that, but in intensive testing I can find no difference in sound using it. I do own the Waltrip Foam formed diaphragm your mentioning. I started to try and make one last winter when my disgust at several other new ones I had purchased prodded me to try and do better. I have sold mine to Steven Medved, and Ron Dethlefson tested it and said it was by far the best new diaphragm he had heard. Better even than the replacement version Edison offered after market.
Its not a completely perfect product, but then the lack of clearness and tone of the others makes it by far a better choice.
I have tested it extensively against the Waltrip and mine will bring out much more of the tone and range of the records than even his. This is based on play with a perfect reproducer as well as like new records. Records or reproducers can produce effects that will make a diaphragm seem like the culprit for things not heard clearly.. I have become increasingly aware of how many of the Disc out there for sale that are in some way damaged. Even when they barely look like there is an issue, it turns out that with no diaphragm will they not produce poor results especially on that high end discussed. Repeatedly when compared to perfect records my diaphragm has played near perfectly.
The biggest issue I have run into when dealing with collectors is the fact that many don't know what they are really hearing. Some have stubbornly defended those cardboard soda carton ones that when the same passages are played with mine, are nearly lifeless.. But somehow they are unable to detect those differences. I have many glowing review from collectors who tested mine and have had no qualms about making mine the one they have left in their machines.
Drop me a note if your interested.

Larry

Hi Larry:

I don't own a DD phonograph at this time, but if I acquire one, I'll definitely keep you in mind.

BTW, I remember--based on what Bob wrote to me--that he always insisted that his customers send him the reproducer so he could install and tune the diaphragm, but he never explained exactly what he meant by "tune."

I've also heard/read that a diamond disc may look pristine, but sound far from perfect when it is played. (Makes me wonder if some sellers don't use something to polish the discs to make them look better than they really are?)

I think a good deal of what is on ebay is culls from peoples collections. The worst part is that the Edison record is evidently more subject to damage quickly than other types perhaps. That is simply a guess, but by the amount of them that play poorly and look somewhat good, I think it doesn't take much to damage them. A lot of people don't realize they can't be played with a standard needle and that may account for some of the damaged ones we see. A chipped needle is also going to ruin the record quickly. Unfortunately most people for years had no way to replace them or in the case of some owners, probably had no clue as to what happened.

That whole tuning thing is somewhat of a mystery. I know that some collectors spend a lot of time tinkering with the ring. More pressure or less pressure on the diaphragm to get the best results. Some of the new ones seem to need very tight rings to work well, or at least better. I have found, and it is borne out by others that mine simply needs a snug tightening to perform properly, no tinkering seems to make much difference.
Some include the adjustment, or cleaning of the moving parts such as the stylus bar or rear weight pivot point as a part of a "tune up".. I think some would want them in the case of a person such as Waltrip to insure that what leaves the home sounds as well as possible. That way you would know what the party on the other end will hear given the right height adjustment of the reproducer and good records. A poor needle will make any diaphragm seem faulty. I had that experience when trying to design the diaphragm. I had a head that showed no wear to the record in the shiny flat portions of the record. I assumed foolishly that meant the needle was ok. But I kept having issues with some distorted places that once I received my rebuilt new needles stylus, I found those places no longer were an issue. The needle was the fault. So many things can go wrong on the owners end that will make it seem not right, I can see why some would insist in installing for them. In the test I did with mine with about 12 collectors, all installed it with no issues and 95% found them to be superior to what others they had tried.

Something else that I feel plays into the amount of record issues one hears is the ability of the diaphragm to transmit the defect at an audible level. The waltrip I have is very warm and when I had nothing but the other soda carton types to compare, it did much better at eliminating the upper end distortion so prevalent in the others. When I got to my latter designs I realized that my diaphragm was greatly expanding the separation and range of the instruments, particularly in classical type selections. The Waltrip was muting the sound by alot. That in its self would dampen or eliminate much of the high end sound some records display. I think Waltrip had no doubt the finest new ones around. I would enjoy hearing some of the other versions which may sound entirely different than the style I have.

One other thought here about distortion.

There is a set of collectors for whom Volume is the whole judge of sound. I was convinced early on that in other brands such as brunswick or especially on the orthophonic machines, a soft or medium tone needle gave a much more balanced and satisfying, less strident performance. As I worked to get more volume, I discovered that although some records which were perhaps not recorded very loudly from the start, increasing the volume was seemingly a good idea. However when one then plays some of the really loudly recorded records you would subject the diaphragm to over driving and thus unsatisfactory sound quality. Victor called it Blast, Edison mentions it in the Diamond Disc Repair manual. He says even a new diaphragm would distort is driven by too much frequency. God knows his records have way more in them than a mechanical reproducer can take complete advantage of. But with what it can do, which never fails to amaze me, he did quite well, and to me other than perhaps the orthophonic type recording it has the fullest more realistic tone of any mechanical machine I have heard.

Compared to standard 78 rpm records, the Edison tracking force is a lot lower, the groove size is smaller, and the groove is vertically cut. Attempts to play Edison discs on standard 78 players ruined them.

Many people try to play Edison records on their regular stereo record players, and think they are bad because the vertically cut grooves sound wrong. So you may see a record advertised as having poor sound that plays OK on the correct equipment.

I have a collector friend who has in excess of 800 different early wind up phonographs and has been repairing them for over 40 years. He designed a replacement Diamond Disc diaphragm from the side of a Coca-Cola can. The thin aluminum works very good when flattened out and cut to shape. Instead of the silk thread, he uses very fine aluminum wire - the type that is about the size of typical sewing thread and epoxies the wire into a hole in the center. His experiments have resulted in a good tone and volume on the machines that he has redone. The wire is similar to the connector wire on an early Victor Concert reproducer.

Speaking of DD reproducers, can someone please post some more on their linkage experience? For example, purchased vs. homemade linkages, braided floss vs. silk, etc. How about the linkage ends? Any ideas besides the ink cartridge refill needle? I'm old hat at metal linkages, but a newbie with thread links. I have a Dance reproducer that came missing its linkage. I'm wondering how I should proceed if I were to try to make my own. The part that concerns me most is re-using the crimped end attached to the button on the diaphragm. It looks like the original linkage was pulled out of the diaphragm and lost. If you don't have an original to compare it to, what's the best way to guess at the proper length for the linkage? Many THANKS to anyone who endeavors to discuss linkages in more detail!