Phonoland

Hello.I hope to be getting a Viva tonal Columbia grafonola model 112A from a friend. He moved back to the USA but is coming for a visit this weekend. He wanted to sell the gramophone before he left and it is in his friend's house (also my friend) for safe keeping. He won't be taking it back with him as it is heavy.

I went to see it this afternoon and although it is a little dusty (just needs a clean) it seems to be in good working order.There is also a jar of needles but I would get it new ones as they could well have been used a few times. There are quite a few 78s to play (and I already have 2 of my own- one a Bing Crosby one!)- I played 3 78s- Joseph Locke and 2 from films- one is Snow White! It winds up well but on 2 of the 78s it slowed down before the music finished; I have read that sometimes the music is too long for the wind on some 78s.
It plays quite loudly and sounds good considering its age. I also read that this model dates from circa late 1920s- 1936.

I would be very grateful as to what I should offer him for the gramophone (I think he was asking £50- but I will see when he arrives) so as to do a fair deal for both of us. I saw one on ebay was sold for $34.50 and another for $200. 50 ( both model 112A).There wasn't much difference in condition if the sellers were being honest. Also a rough idea of the price of the 78s would be welcome- I read they go for about £1-4 here. Some of the 78s look well used but some are very shiny. I don't think any of them are hugely rare/collecter's 78s. A few years ago charity shops here used to be full of 78s selling them for 10p each!

I forgot to mention- I saw 2 months ago in a local shop 2 replica horn gramophones (known as crapophones) being sold for £200 each! I thought they looked like replicas but went in to see them to find out (no intention of buying as I don't have that kind of free cash...) and the man showed me one playing and you could barely hear it! No contest between that and the Columbia granonola there. A man in the local antique shop had a huge antique cabinet horned gramophone playing outside his shop 3 years ago and it was so loud you could hear it in the whole street!

I would say that if it's in overall good condition with no tears in the outer fabric cover, and the motor works okay, and the plating on the parts looks good, 50 pounds ($78.71 USD) would be a reasonable price. (A shop in San Francisco, near where I live, had one for sale for $550.00, which I thought was WAY overpriced.)

If the motor is in good or restored condition, it should be able to play at least a 12-inch 78 rpm record on a full winding, or nearly two 10-inch 78s. Confirm with the seller that the motor has been serviced recently, and that the mainspring has been re-greased and all gears lubricated. (If it has, you may want to add a few pounds to the price you offer the seller.) If not, this should be done before playing too many records.

Along this line, if the sound box or reproducer has not been overhauled with fresh rubber diaphragm gaskets, etc., this will also have a bearing on how well it plays records, and sounds. The model 112-a was designed to play electrically recorded records produced during the mid-1920s and beyond--up until about the early 1940s. (It will not pay vinyl or other light composite 78s from the late 1940s/1950s very well.) In restored operating condition, the 112-A sounds more like an electrically amplified phonograph than an acoustic one, with a room filling sound and more than an impression of bass.

As for the "reproduction" gramophones or Crap-O-Phones, normally the sound boxes are damaged or frozen, and they sound terrible, I agree. A real outside horn gramophone will outperform any of them, and if anything, sounds much better than most internal horn gramophones produced before the mid-1920s, when electrical recording and re-designed gramophones--both electrical and acoustic--supplanted them.

HTH,
JDS

I would say that if it's in overall good condition with no tears in the outer fabric cover, and the motor works okay, and the plating on the parts looks good, 50 pounds ($78.71 USD) would be a reasonable price. (A shop in San Francisco, near where I live, had one for sale for $550.00, which I thought was WAY overpriced.)

The casing is a sort of crocodile look and has no rips or tears that I could see- it is dusty and needs a wipe though. The plating on the needle arm looked fine to me- doesn't look rusty. Yes $550.00 is a lot!

If the motor is in good or restored condition, it should be able to play at least a 12-inch 78 rpm record on a full winding, or nearly two 10-inch 78s. Confirm with the seller that the motor has been serviced recently, and that the mainspring has been re-greased and all gears lubricated. (If it has, you may want to add a few pounds to the price you offer the seller.) If not, this should be done before playing too many records.

I don't think he has done any of that - he knows how to fix mechanical clocks but not sure he knows about gramophones.Will ask him anyway. I can always ask the man in the antiques shop if he knows anyone who could do that greasing and lubricating. I am not technical and wouldn't know how to do it. The antiques man has sold gramophones- the big horned one worked great- I saw him winding it up and changing 78s. I expect he will know someone who can help me look after the Columbia grafonola. Perhaps he knows how to service gramophones himself.

Along this line, if the sound box or reproducer has not been overhauled with fresh rubber diaphragm gaskets, etc., this will also have a bearing on how well it plays records, and sounds.

Thanks for this info, very useful Joe. From reading about gramophones, what you have told me and having seen a few over the years ( but not owned one) I think this Columbia model is in pretty good shape and will just need the jobs you mention to improve its playing the 78s.

The model 112-a was designed to play electrically recorded records produced during the mid-1920s and beyond--up until about the early 1940s. (It will not pay vinyl or other light composite 78s from the late 1940s/1950s very well.) In restored operating condition, the 112-A sounds more like an electrically amplified phonograph than an acoustic one, with a room filling sound and more than an impression of bass.

The 78s he has are from the 1930s/40s.I think one of the 78s I have might be early 50s but the Bing Crosby one 1940s.I got them in a charity shop years ago for probably 10p! I played them on a record player I used to have. I do have some vinyl but wouldn't play them on the Columbia gramophone- will get a record player for them one day!

A question about needles- I presume steel gramophone needles suit any model unlike styluses which are model specific?

As for the "reproduction" gramophones or Crap-O-Phones, normally the sound boxes are damaged or frozen, and they sound terrible, I agree. A real outside horn gramophone will outperform any of them, and if anything, sounds much better than most internal horn gramophones produced before the mid-1920s, when electrical recording and re-designed gramophones--both electrical and acoustic--supplanted them.

The antique horns are where it is at!

MsVintage wrote:A question about needles- I presume steel gramophone needles suit any model unlike styluses which are model specific?

Yes, but there are a variety of needles available. The most common are steel needles which are normally available in three tones -- Soft, Medium, or Loud. The thickness of the needle determines the tone, or loudness, with Loud being the thickest. A steel needle should be used only one time, to play one side of a record, and then discarded. Normally, these come in packages of 100, and are available as new old stock, or newly-manufactured, from eBay and from independent sellers. (Do a Google search for Gramophone Needle Steel and you'll probably spot a number of UK-based sellers. For instance -- http://www.btinternet.com/~bill78/needles.htm ) Prices vary, so it pays to shop around.

In addition, there are fiber (fibre) needles that are actually made from triangular cut bamboo. These can be re-sharpened with a razor knife or a special cutter, and reused many times. I understand that there are a few UK based shops now selling these newly made; otherwise, new old stock packages come up for sale from time to time on eBay.

Still another option is a thorn needle, which also can be resharpened. These are normally available as new old stock only.

Thorn and fiber needles provide a softer tone than steel needles, with less treble and a stronger mid-range. They are also gentler on records. However, the record has to be in very good, almost like-new condition, or the needle will wear out before it has played even one side.

Once in awhile you'll see Tungstyle or Tungs-Tone needles for sale on eBay and other places. These are multi-use needles; basically a very thin tungsten tip attached to a steel shank. These come up for sale on eBay from time to time, and are generally quite expensive since they haven't been produced for nearly 60 years.

The thing to avoid is ANY jewel or Osmium tipped needle. I've seen these on eBay and marketed as "gramophone needles" but they were designed only to be used on electrically amplified gramophones with lighter weight tonearms. Never use something like this on an acoustic gramophone.

HTH,
Joe

Thanks for all that Joe- read about needles and the types for loudness etc- already found some sites for Britain that do them for what I think is a fair price- 100 for about £3.50-4.00 is the going rate. I just wanted to be clear that a needle fits any gramophone- rather different to styluses! I remember having to take the old one round shops to get a new one back in the 1980s. I always preferred record players to cassette players though they were more compact.
Just to confirm, I doubt my friend has serviced the gramophone recently so do you think £50 is the right offer for it?
As it is dusty and he hasn't played it much recently I think that's a sign he hasn't but I'll ask him if he has in the recent past. I never even knew he had it til recently.

I'd say that 50 pounds for a portable such as the 112a, that's in "as-found" but otherwise good condition is well in the ballpark. It's true that prices vary, and you might find one in similar or even better condition for less, but then the question becomes, how long will you have to wait?

One thing you might want to do is to get in touch with some shops, local to where you live, to get an idea of how much it would cost to have basic servicing done--cleaning the motor, re-greasing the mainspring (if needed) and possibly rebuilding the sound box. You can find a few shops doing a Google web search for:

Gramophone Repair UK

or

Gramophone Servicing UK

HTH,
Joe

I'd say that 50 pounds for a portable such as the 112a, that's in "as-found" but otherwise good condition is well in the ballpark. It's true that prices vary, and you might find one in similar or even better condition for less, but then the question becomes, how long will you have to wait?

Thanks Joe.I'm inbetween jobs at the moment so I'm more than happy to take my friend's Columbia off his hands as I have wanted a gramophone for years and it is playing quite well- if it has the jobs done you mention then it'd be pretty much as perfect as an old machine can be I think! I wouldn't get one for less than £50 from the local antiques shop that's for sure.He has arrived now and will sell it to me so will see him this weekend. And as I live in a small room in a shared house its compact size is a bonus.

One thing you might want to do is to get in touch with some shops, local to where you live, to get an idea of how much it would cost to have basic servicing done--cleaning the motor, re-greasing the mainspring (if needed) and possibly rebuilding the sound box. You can find a few shops doing a Google web search for:

Gramophone Repair UK

or

Gramophone Servicing UK

I will do- its servicing will be a "to do" job when I get an income again- unemployment allowance is a pittance.

I won't play the gramophone a lot in the meantime so as to give it a rest but from what I could see its parts look in good working order so playing it maybe once a week for a few mins won't do it any harm. I'll get it some new needles of course. I will definitely pop in and see the antiques man and see if he has gramophone knowledge.

These old machines are amazing aren't they? Made so that they can be serviced and last for 50-100 years! CD players might have a "superior" sound but are not repairable when they get a fault!