P-132 cart alternatives??

Hi all, I have recently acquired a wurlitzer 3860 jukebox with a P132 cart but sound quality was terrible, especially at high frequencies!

I changed the stylus (without much improvement) and then changed the whole cart over from an old dual turntable I have and the quality is spot on now but just quiet! I assume this because the P132 is a ceramic cart with a higher output level? I always thought that the 132 was a magnetic type cart?! Also as it seems I need to replace the cart is the 132 the one to go for or is there a better option with a similar output level? Also what should the tracking weight be for a 132 I dont seem to be able to find any data on the web. Thanks, John

There are several possibilities:

- The new cartridge is magnetic, the old is ceramic. This would cause a large change in level, and a shift to much less bass (the ceramic cartridge has built-in RIAA de-emphasis, the magnetic needs it to be added electronically.

- The new cartridge is moving coil, the old is moving magnet.

- Impedance mismatch

- Wrong stylus force

- Wrong connections

You could also try a preamp between the cart and amp to boost signal if you want to stay with the magnetic cart.

so the 132 is ceramic then? as it happens ive actually gone ahead and ordered another 132 cart, not arrived yet due to i guess the bad weather here but should have it up and running soon. chees for all your help chaps

I just did a Google search, and P-132 is ceramic.

ALL P-132 cartridges are Ceramic. And that's the only option you have or an aftermarket of it. The biggest annoyances of owning a Wurlitzer of any kind. And I like them, the selection receivers are also sometimes a beast to repair. Very overengineered compared to say a Rock-Ola or a AMI.

The original cartridge on your Wurlitzer is a Zenith Cobra. And they are very expensive and hard to find. And most of the aftermarket units are poor quality. The P-132 is the main alternative to replace one. The Zenith original Cobra cartridges were great for 78, acceptable for 1950's original mono 45 singles, and lousy for all else.

John, my original reply seems to have gotten lost here. Without going into the whole thing again, here are a few points:


The p132 is junk. it has a plastic stylus cantilever. you can not get decent transient response, which is necessary for clear treble with plastic because it acts as padding and softens the connection between the stylus and the generating element.

Best approach is to upgrade to a magnetic such as the Shure 44 series or Stanton (if available) 400 or 500 series with changer/Dj grade stylus. You will need to add a preamp between the arm leads and amp input.

Alternatively, you can try another ceramic pickup such as Chuo-Denshi CZ-800. I can't vouch for the quality of these but they do have a metal cantilever along with standard mounting ears and connectors. They are also cheap enough that if you don't like it, not big loss financially.

I recommend going magnetic.

Rob/NYC

Kent T wrote:The original cartridge on your Wurlitzer is a Zenith Cobra. And they are very expensive and hard to find. And most of the aftermarket units are poor quality. The P-132 is the main alternative to replace one. The Zenith original Cobra cartridges were great for 78, acceptable for 1950's original mono 45 singles, and lousy for all else.

Kent, this is a mid-seventies machine. Wurlitzer did not use a Cobra past the mono versions of model 2400 in 1960.

Rob

I really don't see an issue with using a P-132 cartridge in phonographs.
I've used them with great results.
I've also use the P-800 series and they sound ok as well.

But the system itself has to be in proper working order - or anything pumped into it will sound crappy.
Address the amplification - make sure it's been recently serviced - and check the speakers too.
Never assume something "recently aquired" has been brought up to proper working order - even if the seller "claims" such things.
People lie to just to unload their problems on others.

Matt,
"--people lie----" --- No, never--just "embellish" --- or flat out, "speak outta their arse" !
I have installed ONE, P-132, in a WurliTzer, just a couple of years older--I do not recall any problems with it---
Ron Rich

Ron Rich wrote:Matt,
"--people lie----" --- No, never--just "embellish" --- or flat out, "speak outta their arse" !
I have installed ONE, P-132, in a WurliTzer, just a couple of years older--I do not recall any problems with it---
Ron Rich

Ron, just like anything sold on FleaBay or craigs list - people "act dumb" about things, and in most instances, are dumb about technical stuff.
This way they think they can't be held responsible for the item sold.

("but it worked the last time my great grandfather used it in 1912!"

That's the trouble with people today - they don't or won't accept responsibilty for things.
Everyone's playing dumb....they just want the money outa you.

MattTech wrote:I really don't see an issue with using a P-132 cartridge in phonographs.
I've used them with great results.
I've also use the P-800 series and they sound ok as well.

Matt, it's a matter of application and expectations.

All of the jukeboxes I've restored or operated use magnetics. The Wurlitzers and Rock-Olas improved dramatically when upgraded both in terms of definition, distortion and the ability to track highly modulated 45's with lots of percussive bass.

On the other hand, there are cases where ceramic are best. Institutional record players, "kiddie phonos" and some rugged PA turntables are better off with ceramics.

The best sounding older ceramics I've found were;

The slender white ones used in Magnavox sets that claimed "2 gram tracking".

The model 30 Garrard issued with it's lower-end changer.

The BSR SC7. I found a late 70's Sony compact with this a few years ago and was surprised how decent it still sounded with this cart.

The Astatic Power Point IF you got one that was made well. There was wide variation even within the same brand and some were mediocre, others very good. It depended on how and precisely where the stylus was bonded to the bimorph.

I believe the Zenith "micro-track"(?) from the mid-late sixties was also decent. I have a radio-phono compact from fall 1969, I went through it and the radio and aux are good, but the phono is rather dull. It doesn't seem to be an issue of loading or stylus but the cart itself.

Point is, that for a jukebox, doing the work of converting it to magnetic is really the only way to get best performance.

Rob

Rob-NYC wrote:

MattTech wrote:I really don't see an issue with using a P-132 cartridge in phonographs.
I've used them with great results.
I've also use the P-800 series and they sound ok as well.

Matt, it's a matter of application and expectations.

All of the jukeboxes I've restored or operated use magnetics. The Wurlitzers and Rock-Olas improved dramatically when upgraded both in terms of definition, distortion and the ability to track highly modulated 45's with lots of percussive bass.

On the other hand, there are cases where ceramic are best. Institutional record players, "kiddie phonos" and some rugged PA turntables are better off with ceramics.

The best sounding older ceramics I've found were;

The slender white ones used in Magnavox sets that claimed "2 gram tracking".

The model 30 Garrard issued with it's lower-end changer.

The BSR SC7. I found a late 70's Sony compact with this a few years ago and was surprised how decent it still sounded with this cart.

The Astatic Power Point IF you got one that was made well. There was wide variation even within the same brand and some were mediocre, others very good. It depended on how and precisely where the stylus was bonded to the bimorph.

I believe the Zenith "micro-track"(?) from the mid-late sixties was also decent. I have a radio-phono compact from fall 1969, I went through it and the radio and aux are good, but the phono is rather dull. It doesn't seem to be an issue of loading or stylus but the cart itself.

Point is, that for a jukebox, doing the work of converting it to magnetic is really the only way to get best performance.

Rob

Ah, Rob, you're preaching to the choir about cartridges, I'm well aware of the superiority of magnetics.
And I agree with most of your post, except for the Astatic power-point stuff - they suck in my opinion.
I never heard one I liked - and they're record-eaters to boot.
I'd sooner play my records with a nail.

The Zenith Micro-touch cartridges are decent though, highly compliant, but with low output, the result of that compliance.
Also, the Tetrad line is a decent choice for a lot of replacements.
But nothing beats a magnetic, if it can be retrofitted to an application reasonably.
I've done plenty, with good results.

Middle 1970's! Does this Wurlitzer have a 1/2" mount for the cartridge? If so, you might be able to use a magnetic cartridge like a Shure M 44-C or Stanton 400 with a preamp and gain better reproduction and tracking ability. Most every Stereo era Wurlitzer was factory fitted with a Sonotone cartridge which was superior to the Astatic P-132. And there are repro Sonotones available out there.