Seeburg Pickering gold cartridge 45 rpm

Just curious if anyone has ever used a Seeburg gold cartridge? I just picked up a Seeburg 200c-1 or 2 and I thought that it originally had a gold cartridge. Mine has the red head cartridge. So I bought a gold cartridge from a collector and ordered a manual for the phonograph. In the manual it states that there were three cartridges available. One was this gold cartridge, but it also states that the gold cartridge had a permanently installed diamond needle and that when it wears out you replace it with a new cartridge. The other two available cartridges used replaceable needles. One was sapphire and the other was sapphire or diamond.

So my question is has anyone ever used one of these gold cartridges, and if you have, can you change the needle or is it soldered, crimped, etc in place where it wont come out?

Hi Larry,
Doesn't the manual give part numbers for the 3 carts ? The 246725 is the one that originally was equipped with diamond re-replaceable needles--Exactly the same cart as the "blackhead" 245789, 'sept for color .
Hint: See the "arrow" on the tip of the gold cart. it points down on this side and will point up on the other side to indicate which direction to install the new stylii. Ron Rich

The manual states that "There are three pickip types, two of which have replaceable styluses or armature assemblies."

"Stylusus for the number 245789 cartridge ....." uses sapphire styluses only. Part number 245795. "This cartridge is associated with Type PA2-L6 preamplifier only. "

"Stylus armature assemblies for the number 246796 cartridge are available in sspphire or diamond as part numbers 246797 and 246788 respectively. This cartridge is associated with the Type PA4-L6 presmplifier only. "

"The number 246715 cartridge (with gold finish is equiped with permanently set diamond styluses. The entire cartridge should be exchanged when the styluses are worn. "

Only one parenthesis in that quote.

So although the gold one looks just like the black cartridge, I am wondering if the stylusus can be removed and replaced.

The preamp for thst cartridge is not mentioned either. Why would there be a difference in the pre amps?

Larry, if the stylus is replaceable it will fit into a slot such as this on a black cart:
http://s1192.photobucket.com/user/Rob-N ... rt=2&o=228
The styli came with a tiny cardboard tool that slipped onto the angled portion of the cantilever and it was extracted by pulling it straight outward from the cart body

The preamps may differ in how they load the cart due to cart impedance. A black one here measures 488 ohms. this as compared to the typical mono red which is in the 1.7k -2.2k range.

The whole idea of non-replaceable styli makes no sense in these primitive carts. In the 1950's and well into the 70's it was felt that some improvement in tracking could be had by more intimate coupling of cantilever and armature. In reality, I suspect it was just another revenue stream for the cart makers in retipping them. Bang and Olufsen maintains this practice even today as do some of the "boutique" (read: AudioPhool) brands.

Rob

Thanks Rob. I will check the cart when it arrives to see if the stylus can be removed. The phonogragh now has a red cartridge, which according to the manual, would be the wrong cartridge for the preamp that is in the machine. I have the PA2-L6 which should have the normal black cart. The 245789 cart.

If the preamp is designed for 488 ohms and it has red one with over 1,500 ohms, what would happen? Im sure its not going to be a good thing. Sorry for my lack of electronic knowledge.


Larry.

Larry, no damage will be done by connecting the "wrong" cart, but if either the output is too high it might cause distortion. Another factor is input impedance and its effect on cartridge performance. When a cart works into a load that is lower than intended it can create reactance in the form of peaks in response due to the inductance of the cart windings in reaction to the resistance and capacitance of the input.

Generally, on these old tube pre's simply changing the input resistor to a higher impedance will provide the intended load for the cart. For a red one I believe 100k is what Seeburg used.

The degree to which any of this is objectionable or even noticeable is subjective. If it sounds good after a period of listening...then it is OK.

Rob

Guys,
Seeburg started with a 1 meg, with the red heads, then changed it to a 47k--I have installed both, and switched back and forth--NEVER could hear any difference between them--must be something that shows up on a scope ? Ron Rich

Ron, on the Mra5 it was 1 meg then 47K. On the hfma1 it was 220K if the "scratch" switch is at min thus out of the circuit.

I don't have much experience with the red mono carts, but R&C loading of a cart does create and shift peaks and dips in response.

Given the realities of the cart, speakers and record condition on those old machines it's not surprising you didn't notice a difference. However, if you try the different settings on the hfma1 scratch switch you'll hear a radical difference in frequency emphasis. It doesn't just kill the highs, it also creates a big hump in the lower midrange and actually increases the effective output of the cart in those frequencies. This was a simpler version of the switchable compensating networks RCA used between cart and preamp in their broadcast turntables from the 1940's till the early 70's when they stopped making them.

Here are some articles:

http://www.extremephono.com/Loading.htm

http://www.hagtech.com/loading.html

While these articles deal with modern carts that are designed for 47K loads, the graphs and calculations are interesting and do apply to even our old relics.

Rob

Rob,
I thought that you ( and everyone else) knew--I have an 80 % hearing loss in my left ear, and a 20% loss in my right ear--My wife says that adds up to 100% ( especially when it's "honey due time" !). Ron Rich