The report is one that I would not disregard. However, it might not be the 100 record version of a Seeburg, but an earlier magazine type changer, either by Seeburg or another company. I had assumed it was the 100 record Seeburg from the description in the report. I now know that there was a smaller Seeburg made in the 1930s, plus a magazine device made by a company named Packard, and one made by Ishammar. I have a photo in an old magazine of the smaller Seeburg, and a larger record would fit on the magazine shelf. Someone could put a larger record in the Packard too, and it would throw it on the floor.
The report was a true story from a repairman called to repair a' phonograph for a famous (but not named) vocalist from the 1930s. He was complaining that whenever his expensive new selectable record player came to one of his own recordings, it threw it on the rug instead of playing it. The repairman then said, "Whoever made these records for you cut them on oversized discs. Your machine can take 10" or 12" records, nothing larger, and these are considerably larger." The vocalist was relieved that it was the diameter, and not the machine's taste in music. At the time I originally read the report, I did not know that other selectable record home products existed.
High End Record Changers
Electrically amplified phonographs or radio/phonographs and related components (approx. 1928-1990).
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Record-changer
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The absolute best Stereo era record changer was the Thorens TDW-224. Which was over $500 in the middle 1960's with any average good magnetic cartridges. Never used in factory built radiograms or consoles. Dual and Miracord were the best used in very high end European consoles, followed by Garrard's best, Perpetuum-Ebner, and Collaro high end models. From there you have VM, Glaser-Steers, BSR, and the average console fittings in the USA. In the console pecking order you have Fisher, HH Scott, Ampex, Magnavox Concert Grand, and Top Of The Line Zenith consoles, the Seeburg Home Consoles and Library Units and from there the middle of the line common consoles we know well here. Some other information, Seeburg's famous Select-O-Matic mechanism was first used on Seeburg Industrial Commercial Background Music systems in 1946. Which was background music applications in factories, stores, and offices. And this unit was 78 RPM only until the 1949 launch of 45 RPM records. The Library Units several years later were used for the same job in industry, and in home use, and in early broadcast automation systems.
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Record-changer
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Fisher sold the Lincoln turnover record changer in the late 1950s and early 1960s. It played odd sizes intermixed, turned the records over, and even took 12" and 10" 33s mixed with 7" 45s.
The Fisher-Lincoln changer was excellent for mono, too much vertical rumble for Stereo and tracked a bit too heavy for Stereo use. And a beast to repair, very complex mechanism.
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Record-changer
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I know. I have the service manual. A pneumatic change cycle.
There's an elephant in the room that nobody on this thread is looking at: it's called "vertical tracking angle" (VTA), which changes every
time a record is added to the played stack. But maybe that's a minor issue compared to the high levels of wow and rumble that these changer units (especially the ones used in "consoles" produced.
time a record is added to the played stack. But maybe that's a minor issue compared to the high levels of wow and rumble that these changer units (especially the ones used in "consoles" produced.
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MattTech
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billinrio wrote:There's an elephant in the room that nobody on this thread is looking at: it's called "vertical tracking angle" (VTA), which changes every
time a record is added to the played stack. But maybe that's a minor issue compared to the high levels of wow and rumble that these changer units (especially the ones used in "consoles" produced.
Vertical tracking error is highly important IF you're some kind of obsessed audio fanatic (nutcase) that wears white gloves and can hear the sound of a fly's wings buzzing a half-mile away.
Otherwise, VTA is nothing to be concerned about.
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Ron Rich
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Hi Matt,
This brings up a question in my feeble, little, mind--
IF, one was to play an average record, sitting directly on the turn table, and make a running recording of it, with a 'scope, then play the same record "piled" 6-9 high on the turn table, making the same 'scope recording, would one see any difference ? I tend to doubt it --
Ron Rich
This brings up a question in my feeble, little, mind--
IF, one was to play an average record, sitting directly on the turn table, and make a running recording of it, with a 'scope, then play the same record "piled" 6-9 high on the turn table, making the same 'scope recording, would one see any difference ? I tend to doubt it --
Ron Rich
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MattTech
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Ron Rich wrote:Hi Matt,
This brings up a question in my feeble, little, mind--
IF, one was to play an average record, sitting directly on the turn table, and make a running recording of it, with a 'scope, then play the same record "piled" 6-9 high on the turn table, making the same 'scope recording, would one see any difference ? I tend to doubt it --
Ron Rich
Ron, as much as I joke around with you on occasion, I hardly think you're "feeble-minded".
And you know I find you as a highly-regarded resource on jukeboxes,
But to further delve on the "effects" of this VTA business.... within the higher-end audio equipment department...
It's just some silly nuance dreamt up by critics in the audio world - in search of some form of validation of "perfection" in their eyes (ears?)
I myself almost fell for it back in the 1970s with the use of my Dual 1229 turntable with the Shure V15/II cartridge.
"Correct Fifteen Degrees" tracking angle was the thing everybody was shouting about back then.
Almost every audiophile-grade record playing instrument back then had some "adjustment" or compensation control for it.
Bleh.... crap I say.
I could throw the little "single/multi" lever on my Dual 1229 EITHER WAY and NOT hear a damn difference - even with my 24 year old ears and perfect hearing.
Sure, a diamond-tipped stylus should sit in the groove at a proper angle - WITHIN REASON - but this "critical" degrees stuff was enough to nut a person's brain.
To go further, in playing an average record, there are sometimes small warps, and some lateral off-center wobble as well.
A highly compliant stylus cantilever will "flex" in response to these things under the forces of inertia, caused by the tonearm.
And you can see it.
And guess what?
There goes your angles so richly talked about.
You can't do a damn thing about it.
You can't do snot when the VTA changes as the stylus goes up the incline of a warp, then back down the "hill".
Why worry about it at all, as long as the music flows and you enjoy it.
I certainly won't "nut my brains" about it, and neither should anyone else, because despite what the audio snots claim, you can't hear a damn difference - it's all in their brains.
The Internet is a marvelous thing, however it's not a good substitute for actually being there.
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DoghouseRiley
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Not that I've used a "stacking" turntable since my teens, I've always wondered how with the top record being considerably higher than the bottom one, whether the "angle of impact" of the stylus made any difference to performance or record wear.
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MattTech
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DoghouseRiley wrote:Not that I've used a "stacking" turntable since my teens, I've always wondered how with the top record being considerably higher than the bottom one, whether the "angle of impact" of the stylus made any difference to performance or record wear.
Wonder no more doggie.
It's all just goofy chatter as I said earlier.
Don't let it ruin your life.
The Internet is a marvelous thing, however it's not a good substitute for actually being there.
There are two aspects to this topic that are often overlooked.
Many changers run slightly fast. the primary reason for this is to overcome the effect of added friction when a stack of records load on the table. research has shown that people are more likely to notice when the sound is "dragging" as opposed to voiced fast (within 1%). In fact, a lot of people expressed preference for a pitched-up sound. Radio stations have long used sped-up media to create a more uptempo sound.
Another consideration is the effect of wear vs. VTA. When most of the time you are playing a single record and a wear profile develops on the stylus based on the area in contact with the record. When a stack of records piles up it places an area of the stylus face that has generally not been worn in contact with the grooves. it is the abrupt, chisel-like transition between the two that does the damage.
Personally, I've never seen the advantage to changers. Given the fact that most LP's play about 20-25 minutes per side and the likelihood that you'll have to adjust levels from one record to the next, changers, at least for LP's always seemed a gimmick.
Rob-NYC
Many changers run slightly fast. the primary reason for this is to overcome the effect of added friction when a stack of records load on the table. research has shown that people are more likely to notice when the sound is "dragging" as opposed to voiced fast (within 1%). In fact, a lot of people expressed preference for a pitched-up sound. Radio stations have long used sped-up media to create a more uptempo sound.
Another consideration is the effect of wear vs. VTA. When most of the time you are playing a single record and a wear profile develops on the stylus based on the area in contact with the record. When a stack of records piles up it places an area of the stylus face that has generally not been worn in contact with the grooves. it is the abrupt, chisel-like transition between the two that does the damage.
Personally, I've never seen the advantage to changers. Given the fact that most LP's play about 20-25 minutes per side and the likelihood that you'll have to adjust levels from one record to the next, changers, at least for LP's always seemed a gimmick.
Rob-NYC
"If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities" -- Voltaire
"[i]Personally, I've never seen the advantage to changers. Given the fact that most LP's play about 20-25 minutes per side and the likelihood that you'll have to adjust levels from one record to the next, changers, at least for LP's always seemed a gimmick.
Rob-NYC"
[/i]
Changers are very useful when trying to be romantic with your lady friend. The action of interrupting a good snuggle and kiss to change a record every twenty minutes is not conducive to good seduction and "courtus-interruptus" can cause lasting damage to the male psyche.
Rob-NYC"
[/i]
Changers are very useful when trying to be romantic with your lady friend. The action of interrupting a good snuggle and kiss to change a record every twenty minutes is not conducive to good seduction and "courtus-interruptus" can cause lasting damage to the male psyche.
Vinyl is disease which attacks that area of the brain desiring digital recordings. Once you catch it, you are cured.
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DoghouseRiley
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Thom wrote:"[i]Personally, I've never seen the advantage to changers. Given the fact that most LP's play about 20-25 minutes per side and the likelihood that you'll have to adjust levels from one record to the next, changers, at least for LP's always seemed a gimmick.
Rob-NYC"
[/i]
Changers are very useful when trying to be romantic with your lady friend. The action of interrupting a good snuggle and kiss to change a record every twenty minutes is not conducive to good seduction and "courtus-interruptus" can cause lasting damage to the male psyche.
Most women will tell you some men can't last twenty minutes, all they need is a 45rpm.
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I don't mind if you don't like my manners, I don't like them myself, they're pretty bad, I grieve over them on long winter evenings.
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MattTech
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Rob-NYC wrote:There are two aspects to this topic that are often overlooked.
Many changers run slightly fast. the primary reason for this is to overcome the effect of added friction when a stack of records load on the table. research has shown that people are more likely to notice when the sound is "dragging" as opposed to voiced fast (within 1%). In fact, a lot of people expressed preference for a pitched-up sound. Radio stations have long used sped-up media to create a more uptempo sound.
Another consideration is the effect of wear vs. VTA. When most of the time you are playing a single record and a wear profile develops on the stylus based on the area in contact with the record. When a stack of records piles up it places an area of the stylus face that has generally not been worn in contact with the grooves. it is the abrupt, chisel-like transition between the two that does the damage.
Personally, I've never seen the advantage to changers. Given the fact that most LP's play about 20-25 minutes per side and the likelihood that you'll have to adjust levels from one record to the next, changers, at least for LP's always seemed a gimmick.
Rob-NYC
Now that's plain nit-picking, to even worry about this so-called "wear pattern" on a stylus tip.
What isn't mentioned in that the depth of the stylus IN the groove varies with the stereo signals (L/R) and besides the "back & forth" motion the "up & down" is in the mix.
So this so-called "wearing" area on the tip is constantly varying, and hardly effected by what "VTA" is involved.
Come on now, let's get real now - and stop debating the trivialities about this, because it's now sounding like those audio-fool sites that give me gas.
The Internet is a marvelous thing, however it's not a good substitute for actually being there.
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