Types of 78's

Are there different type of 78's before vinyl and if so can they be played on different types of players. I have a record from the 20's and played it on a 1940's record player and it seemed to play ok but I dont want to damage it. Could I play a 1940's record on a victrola without damaging the record?

Hi John,
Generally speaking, you shouldn't play US or UK records made after about 1935 on an acoustic machine.
It was about this time that most companies in those countries changed the shellac material the records were made from, to a softer shellac with less abrasives. This was done because the electric pick-ups had gained popularity, and were alot lighter than earlier electric & acoustic pick-ups, so they didn't see the need for the "old style" harder shellac, and I guess made them cheaper to manufacture as well.
You'll find records from the 40's & 50's played on an acoustic Victrola will will wear out very quickly. If you want to play them on acoustic machines, it's recommended you use either soft tone steel needles, or fibre/bamboo needles, as they cause far less damage than loud tones. We were lucky here in Australia, because they never changed the shellac much, and most disc's from the 40's & 50's handle acoustic reproduction extremely well. I believe many European pressing are also very good.
It's quite safe to play early disc's on a 40's machine, though before the late 20's they were acoustically recorded, so they won't sound the best through an electrical system.

As for "types" of records, there was 2 formats used up until the late 20's/early 30's. These were "lateral" cut recordings, which most 78's use, and which continues to be used for disc's today, and the original format called "vertical" or "hill & dale" recordings, which was used by edison for his diamond disc's and all brands of cylinder records. Some companies like Vocalion & Pathe made disc records using a vertical cut recording, but they all eventually changed over to the more popular lateral or "needle cut" format.
Lateral recordings of course, were cut "side to side" within the groove, and vertical's were cut "up & down".
Lateral recordings are played with the soundbox in line with the groove, and to play verticals the soundbox is turned to sit across the grooves usually. These can be played on modern equiptment by swapping around 2 of the wires connected to the cartridge for the left and right channels

Shane, do you ahve any pics or diagrams that would what the different types of cuts and methods are. Hard to visualize it.

There's a couple px at this site, but they're probably not the best.
Basically, a vertical cut is done by the needle moving straight up and down, and denting the surface, like pushing a pin into foil, and a lateral cut makes a zigzag in the groove from the needle moving from side to side.
I'll see if I can find any better pictures.
http://www.angelfire.com/nc3/talkingmac ... tvert.html

Is it easy to identify between the two types of recording methods?

Not always. Not by looking at the recorded area anyway, although the grooves usually look a little finer & shallower than most lateral 78's. The best way to tell is usually by the label.
The most common Vertical cut records by far are those made by Edison & Pathe.

Edison Diamond Disc's are easy to spot because they are about the thickness of 3 or 4 ordinary 78's, and are quite heavy. These can only be played on an Edison DD machine, or on something like a Brunswick with the ultona soundbox, but require a special diamond tipped needle to play them. Any other needle will destroy the record by cutting the surface of the disc.

Pathe used the vertical cut system until the early 30's, and as far as I know was the last to do so.
Early pathe's were made in France & Belgium, and have an etched label instead of paper. The title etc was pressed into the disc, which was filled with paint to make them readable. Later on, they too used a paper label.These records were recorded at a speed anywhere between 90-100rpm, and started from the centre near the label, and played towards the outside of the disc. They are also odd sizes like 9 1/2" or 11 3/4".
American Pathe's also had a paper label, which used a rooster as a trademark, and these would be the most common vertical cut shellac records you'll find over there. In 1921 Pathe started producing lateral cut records which were given a new name- Pathe "Actuelle", and included the words "needle cut" on the label. These can be played with an ordinary steel needle, but the vertical cut records need a special ball point sapphire needle to be played, as the shellac used was softer than normal 78's, and a steel needle again will damage the record.

Most companies which produced vertical recordings, but later introduced lateral records, will include the words "needle cut", "lateral cut" or Lateral" on the label, & continued to do so until they stopped making vertical cut records.
If you ever find a disc you're unsure of, the best thing to do is a bit of research before playing them. Most companies like Victor & Columbia never made vertical recorded disc's so there's no worries there. (apparently Columbia did make verticals, but these are very rare, and are special order pressing which were not released on a commercial basis)
If you can't find info on a particular label, then try lowering the needle on the blank edge or centre of the disc, and if the needle starts to cut the shellac, chances are it was vertically recorded, or if it plays, but it sounds all garbled & low volume, but appears to be in good condition, these may also be vertical recordings.

There are a few more variations:

1. The "standard" lateral cut was used by all companies after 1930. This was originated by Berliner, and always used by Victor. Sometimes it is called a "needle cut" record. The stylus was about 3 mils radius. All electrically cut production records are of this type.

- Note that the "electrical process" on old acoustic Victors refers to the electroplating used to make stampers, not electrical recording.

2. A vertical cut version of the standard lateral groove was used by Aeolian, Gennett, Majestic, Okeh, Paramount, and Vocalion, until around 1918. Pathe used this format for their paper-label discs, and all records after 1926. Columbia made vertical discs until 1903, and also briefly produced some vertical discs for use in France during World War I, because most players there were Pathe. I have one of the latter..

3. The Pathe etched label records before 1926, and their 14" and 20" records, used a larger stylus (7 mil) for their "sapphire ball" embossed records. The 14" records turned at 90 rpm, and the 20" ones turned at 120 rpm. A special stylus is needed for these, and all of them start at the center of the record (instead of at the rim).

4. Edison used a smaller 1 mil diamond stylus for its vertical Diamond Discs. These play better with a stylus made for 33 rpm records.

5. Emerson made needle-cut records recorded at 45 degrees between 1916 and 1918. This was supposed to play on either vertical or lateral players. But both damaged the records.

Also note that record speeds were not standardized until 1928, when 78.26 rpm became the standard speed for all US records except Edison:

- The original Berliner discs turned at 90 rpm. So did the Pathe 14" discs.

- The following companies used 80 rpm: Aeolian, Clarion, Columbia,Diva, Edison, Emerson (after 1918), Fonotipia, Gennett, Majestic, Okeh, Pathe, and Vocalion.

- The following companies were linked in various ways to Victor, and used 70 rpm until 1909, and 75-76 rpm until 1928: Berliner, Electrola, Gramophone and Typewriter, HMV, Musica, Odeon, Opera Disc, Polydor, Victor, and Zonophone. But often these recordings were recorded a bit faster than specified. Emerson also used 70 rpm before 1918.

After 1932, record companies started making records out of softer shellac, because electric pickups were replacing acoustic ones. Different companies started doing this on different dates. This improved the sound quality. These records wear out quickly on acoustic players.

Edison Diamond Discs are made of a material similar to Bakelite.

During the years 1939-1946, shellac was in short supply due to World War II. Records were made out of reused shellac (with bits of record labels in it), shellac mixed with cheap binders, Bakelite, and other substitutes. Acoustic players destroy these.

Some 78s made in the 1950s are vinyl. An acoustic player would destroy these.

2. ..... Columbia made vertical discs until 1903, and also briefly produced some vertical discs for use in France during World War I, because most players there were Pathe. I have one of the latter..

No disrespect intended, but I thought the the whole issue regarding whether or not Columbia produced vertical recordings for general sale was put to rest long ago...

R.C. Please read this entire post string :

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=911&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

...especially my comments regarding the JONES PATENT on page two. Also, please look over all of the links cited in the post string. This should clear things up, as to what the patent pool was all about.

BTW, you've yet to post a photo of the Columbia disc you believe is vertically recorded. Please do this ASAP. One of our members may have some information about this....

During the years 1939-1946, shellac was in short supply due to World War II. Records were made out of reused shellac (with bits of record labels in it), shellac mixed with cheap binders, Bakelite, and other substitutes. Acoustic players destroy these

I would just like to destroy this myth, once and for all!

It IS true that if you buy (or inherit for that matter) an old acoustic machine "as found" and throw in a loud tone needle and play a reord to death, that you will almost certainly wear it out.

But there is one important proviso here. Most of us "machine collectors" have a fair amount of pride in our collections and will always rebuild the soundboxes (pickups) of our machines with new rubber gaskets, springs (and even diaphragms if necessary) to ensure that they will continue to play loud music as they were originally intended to. Now, a good acoustic machine like an HMV 163 or bigger model re-entrant (with large folded horn etc) will be able to cope with the 1939-46 records with relative ease and when these machines have had their s/boxes rebuilt are not necessarily on a path to record destruction. I would of course need to also add here that with the use of FIBRE needles or THORN types they will not wear out the record at all!

I have an Expert machine (similar to an EMG) with large external horn and I regularly play 78's from well into the 1940's and even early '50's. With a highly sensitive and compliant brass s/box, well tuned, it can play any of these records with fibre needles without any wear occurring.

Okay maybe we're both talking "extremes" here but I think you get the point? A good acoustic machine fully serviced and used sensibly with non steel needles is not putting your records at risk anymore than an electrical bakelite pickup contemporary with the later records. I've even been told that the latter can make things worse, a claim I cannot refute having seen so many late 40's early '50's records which have been heavily played on radiograms etc.

Steve

STEVE wrote:

During the years 1939-1946, shellac was in short supply due to World War II. Records were made out of reused shellac (with bits of record labels in it), shellac mixed with cheap binders, Bakelite, and other substitutes. Acoustic players destroy these

I would just like to destroy this myth, once and for all!

It IS true that if you buy (or inherit for that matter) an old acoustic machine "as found" and throw in a loud tone needle and play a reord to death, that you will almost certainly wear it out.

But there is one important proviso here. Most of us "machine collectors" have a fair amount of pride in our collections and will always rebuild the soundboxes (pickups) of our machines with new rubber gaskets, springs (and even diaphragms if necessary) to ensure that they will continue to play loud music as they were originally intended to. Now, a good acoustic machine like an HMV 163 or bigger model re-entrant (with large folded horn etc) will be able to cope with the 1939-46 records with relative ease and when these machines have had their s/boxes rebuilt are not necessarily on a path to record destruction. I would of course need to also add here that with the use of FIBRE needles or THORN types they will not wear out the record at all!

I have an Expert machine (similar to an EMG) with large external horn and I regularly play 78's from well into the 1940's and even early '50's. With a highly sensitive and compliant brass s/box, well tuned, it can play any of these records with fibre needles without any wear occurring.

Okay maybe we're both talking "extremes" here but I think you get the point? A good acoustic machine fully serviced and used sensibly with non steel needles is not putting your records at risk anymore than an electrical bakelite pickup contemporary with the later records. I've even been told that the latter can make things worse, a claim I cannot refute having seen so many late 40's early '50's records which have been heavily played on radiograms etc.

Steve

I was talking about a typical unmodified Victrola acoustic player with a steel needle and the original uncounterbalanced heavy tracking force of its tone arm. Naturally, if you take steps to counter the destructive forces, you can prevent the damage. I have even seen an acoustic player designed for vinyl LPs.

The real point is that, for many of the recordings made during World War II, nobody really knows what materials are in the record:

- The following substitute materials were used at one time or another in records during World War II: Bakelite, asphalt, hide glue, sawdust, paper, rubber, tar, asbestos, glass, casein, mucilage, and cardboard. This list is not exhaustive.

- Often the record is a sandwich of laminated surfaces over a core of a different material. I have one record with an unplayable side, where the surface cracked and fell off the core in places. An acoustic player with high tracking force can punch through the surface and crack it off the substrate.

- They used what they could get at the time. I have two copies of the same recording that were made of different materials.

Joe_DS wrote:

2. ..... Columbia made vertical discs until 1903, and also briefly produced some vertical discs for use in France during World War I, because most players there were Pathe. I have one of the latter..

No disrespect intended, but I thought the the whole issue regarding whether or not Columbia produced vertical recordings for general sale was put to rest long ago...

BTW, you've yet to post a photo of the Columbia disc you believe is vertically recorded. Please do this ASAP. One of our members may have some information about this....

I did some more research, and found that the vertical discs made up to 1903 were for a foreign market, not for general distribution here.

I can't get to that disc for some time, because there are large pieces of furniture completely filling that room. It is blocking access the shelves containing all of my shellac records. Eventually that furniture will be put back where it belongs, but until I get the room the furniture belongs in ready to accept it, the disc is going to remain inaccessible. This is a home repair job I have been doing in my spare time when funds are available. Right now, funds are not available. It will damage the work I already did if I move the furniture back.

My house is a 15-puzzle right now, with something in the empty space where the segments are supposed to slide.

I have spent a fair amount of energy searching for the elusive vertical format Columbia disc record. And no one I've talked with has ever seen or heard of one other than a possible weak connection with NY recording labs or some such-I don't have the link handy right this second, nor has anyone heard of any special production runs for the A.E.F. Recordchanger also claimed that Columbia manufactured a vertical Graphophone, I have found no evidence anywhere of such a beast.
I would love to see any documentation of the record itself-especially a close-up of the groove structure and a description of the label. I am very willing to admit I'm wrong-if I see verifiable evidence. I would love to see an advertisement or catalogue page illustration a vertical sound-box Columbia Graf.
Sir, I beg of you some sort of evidence, documentation, corroboration any proof beyond one man's say so and a claim of one 1973 magazine article. We all have a responsibility to get things as right as we can. Thank you.

Respectfully,
J.