Phonoland

Hi all,

I am new to this forum. I would like to buy a Rowe Ami MM5 with a 1100 mechanism I found on an ad. The owner says it works.

How can I make an exhaustive test before deciding to buy it? I would like to check everything I need to make sure it is 100% operational.

Any tips will be greatly appreciated!

Thanks in advance.

Normally, the first bit of advice I give is "do NOT plug it in" -but if it is in a home and being used you can test it with reasonably safety.

An MM5 is 43 years old, unless it's amp has been rebuilt in the last 20 years and the mechanism at least oiled, it will not be operating at it's best.

The mechanism and selection system is fairly simple electromechanical tech of the early 1960s. main problem areas are:

1) Dry gearmotors in both gripper and magazine.

2) Dry turntable motor.

3) Worn chase wipers in the search unit. Also a loose drive belt (NBD).

If the selection system works and the mech handles the records correctly, a thorough lubrication will be all that it absolutely needed.

Amplifier;

1) Capacitors in the tube power amp and the transistor preamp-control box must be replaced.

2) Often one of the 7868 tubes will have shorted and burned up a 100 ohm ½watt resistor that powers the G2 on each output tube. This will cause weak output and distortion in the affected channel.

While a record is playing, remove one RCA plug from the pickup that goes into the preamp box. Then Plug that one back in and pull the other. Sound should not go completely out (as long as one plug is in of course). Rowe uses an unorthodox speaker and pickup wiring. The pickup is wired out of phase and the bass speaker is connected across both channels. this is done to give a mono bass to reduce rumble and feedback as well as aid the slightly out of phase wiring of the two top speakers which widens the stereo effect (unfortunately, it also emphasizes record distortion).

These are very good machines,. When properly restored and set up they will run for years and given the lack of any hard-to-find proprietary electronic parts, they can be kept running indefinitely I have two 1966-67 Rowe MM-1 hideaways still running on location. One is running on a 1987 rebuild, the other was 1994.

If you buy the machine be sure to get a service manual for it....and wear a hernia belt when you move it:-)

Rob/NYC

Hehe the hernia belt is a good idea, they look heavy!

Thanks a lot Rob.

Fortunately I have experience with vacuum tube vintage amps so it will not be an issue for me if any work on it will have to be done. I am a bit concern about the mechanism, but according to what you say if something is not working properly it shouldn't be a problem to repair it so that is encouraging. Just consider that I can't buy stuff online from abroad because of nonsense policies here so I will have to handle with no original parts and just generic stuff around. Same thing about the manual, we can not make payments in dollars so unfortunately I don't think I will be able to buy it

The seller has the jukebox in his home, and he uses it (I have no idea about how often) so I hope nothing got damaged or worn out because of not lubricating it for a while. The pics (not very good though) show a dirty inside so for shure it has not been serviced for a lot of years.

I read somewhere that there is a standard combination of letters/numbers that should be tested, but I didn't understand why because I am not familiar with the exact meaning of the words they use to describe different mechanical components of the mechanism. They say A1, C2, E3 and so on, and then B1, D2, etc.

I am waiting for a msg from the owner to see if he accepts a lower offer as the asking price is way too high. If he agrees I will go over to take a look and decide if it comes home with me. He says it has all the records in it, I wonder wich kind of music was it meant to play and where did he get it from. Sometimes the story behind objects is as interesting as the objects themselves.

If I finally get it I will be around for sure!

Thanks again.

Just consider that I can't buy stuff online from abroad because of nonsense policies here so I will have to handle with no original parts and just generic stuff around. Same thing about the manual

That does create a potential problem with any older device -juke or otherwise.

Most of what is in there can be patched-up, but the two gear motors are another matter. If the gears strip that motor will have to be either replaced or rebuilt. The American co that made them is still in business and will rebuild/replace as desired however this may pose a problem for you. The alternative is, of course, to find a used sub from an operator. Those Multi-Products motors were also used in some older games. I recall seeing them in some old bowling games -but the voltage and gear ratio might be different. There is usually a way around these sorts of problems and , if you take care of teh existing motors you may never have to deal with any of this.

read somewhere that there is a standard combination of letters/numbers that should be tested, but I didn't understand why because I am not familiar with the exact meaning of the words they use to describe different mechanical components of the mechanism. They say A1, C2, E3 and so on, and then B1, D2, etc

The reason I didn't suggest that here is that the nature of the Rowe search-memory does not use separate memory "cells" (coils-magnets-toroids) to remember each record. It simply uses a pin which gets pushed into the selected position by the same hammer that punches all the other selection of a record side (a-b). So, if it can select an A and a B side there is little else that can go wrong. the problems would be simply broken wires to the keyboard, broken slide contacts in the keyboard (very rare -I've never seen one) and loose edge connector 'finger" on the search unit connector.

Other things like worn chase wipers in the search unit and pitted relay contacts will affect all selections.

If you can't actually "buy" a manual from outside the country, we'll have to see if someone will forward a digital copy (i don't have anything from that era). Perhaps a local operator can help.

A manual is not absolutely essential once you have an understanding of how these machines work, but it can save time.

Above all else: Don't "tinker"! VERY few problems are "just an adjustment". Generally, it is only when parts are replaced that adjustments -might- become necessary. Otherwise, if something doesn't work properly -study how it should work and ask questions.

Rob

Thanks again Rob for your tips and the very valuable information.

I am still (anxiously) waiting for the answer from the owner. I will be back if I end up getting it!

This is the exact model of the one I am behind. I really like that wood-metal combination, it is somehow sober among other jukeboxe's models and so the one to somehow fit the room where I want to put it!



As I would really like that the mechanism can be seen while playing, I thought about (I don't know if this will be reversible, if not I will not do it as I am very conscious about making changes on this kind of things) of removing the colored glass behind the woodwork in the front and placing instead a regular transparent glass maybe together with a blue coloured film that lets you see the mechanism through the woodwork with an uniform blue tone while inner lights are on. While not operating (inner lights off) the film will prevent the mechanism to be seen.

Ok, for now I have to lower my exitement and wait... Bye and thanks!

If the Rowe Ami MM-5 is as the picture posted then it is the Californian that was produced in 1971.

Best of luck with the purchase.

Re the selection test on Rowe Ami 1100 then you are correct, A1, C2, E3 etc and the same on the B sides is the standard test. I would normally drop the search unit so you can see the search unit punching out the pins.

Just strip the mechanism down to clean the parts and check for any wear, adjust per the manual and only oil sparingly on the the motor wicks, idlerwheel linkage and turntable motor. You only need a spot in each location.

Regards
Alan

Alan Hood
ami-man
UK

Ami-man: Thanks for the wishes! I am still waiting...

What is the combination series to test the B-sides? Also, on the pictures I saw a kind of panel inside on the left which has a knob, a button and a lever, but I don't get to see the labels. Should I test any of them somehow?

If you get the machine and the tonearm is anywhere but it's proper position -which here would be at-rest, DO NOT power it until you lift and reset the arm in it's proper position. Failure to do this can cause the tonearm cam to jam against the arm's cam followers and this can strip the fiber gear in the gripper motor.

The box on the left has the service switch, free play and record cancel buttons, the knob at the top is just for setting pricing.

Look at this pic (not mine) and it will be clear:

http://www.retroaudiolab.com/pictures/r ... talled.jpg

Rob

Hello Normende,

The combination on the B sides is B1, D2, F3, H4 etc.

John is correct re the service switch, reject and bonus/pricing switching.

If in doubt you can turn the transfer motor by hand using an allen key in the screw on the end of the transfer motor shaft. I tend to just operate it by turning the gears, this way you can inspect the fibre gear that often strips teeth (if this is the case you would need a replacement motor or a new gear, there is someone in the USA that has a service kit.

Regards
Alan

Alan Hood
ami-man
UK

Thanks a lot for your tips Rob/Ami-man!! Things like having to set the right position of the tone arm before playing is something I wouldn't have guessed because in regular record players you don't necessarily have to.

I am supposed to go test it in the next few days, and discuss the price with the owner in person. I don't think he would let me put my hands on the mechanism, so I will try to test it with the buttons and see what happens.

Bye for now!

I just came from the owner's house. We didn't talk about the price because of "miscellaneous" stuff, but I got to test the unit a bit at least.

Sound: Very low volume (same volume as a regular conversation between humans hehe), only one channel working (in the other one only background noise). Low quality, almost no bass, etc. The amp for sure needs to be completely rebuilt. This is ok for me, the only problem is if one of the output tubes need replacement.

Mechanism: It plays both sides (I could try a couple of combinations only). It failed in one test: According to the writing on the labels, P4 and N4 combinations refer to the two sides of the same record. P4 worked ok, but N4 played the record next to the one I meant to play. I couldn't keep testing other combinations. Is this something to worry about or this can be coming from not having had maintenance for at least 20 years? (everything looked so dirty inside). Something else, when rejecting the record with the button in the left pannel, the record was put back in the carrousel every time wihout any problems, but the carrousel didn't stop in the same slot every time I did that (maybe this is not a problem?). It never turned more than one complete turn, but sometimes it was resting in one slot and some others in another. The record speed was not right, it was lower and uneven. After a while playing it got a bit closer to what it should be but still not perfect.

Cabinet: in general not perfect at all, it had a lot of details specially the moldings at the lower sides. The plastic in front of the upper speakers was not nice-looking at all, it seems like someone used a kind of cleaner that affected the finish. The silvered part at the front edge before the glass had a lot of marks and the silver layer was missing randomly (people should have been around that front piece with rings, belts, and stuff like that when the jukebox was in bars or who knows where). Is this piece metal that can be re-plated? The sides seem to be metal, with the front part I can't tell if it is metal or plastic. The metal mask around the slot and selection buttons needs to be re-painted.

Miscellaneous: When plugged in, even without playing, a very stron "hum-like" noise can be heard. It see,s to not be coming from the speakers, but from the vibration of some transformer maybe? It is too loud, this can't be normal at all I think. Some lights were not working. The counter which indicates the combinations played needs calibration because it reads wrong ones.

So this is what I saw. Can you please advice me about the issues in the mechanism and about that silver piece? Should I take the risk (as long as we can get to an agreement about the price, but I don't want to go on without being sure that it can be repaired with no specific parts as I can't bring them here from abroad).

Thanks!!!

Judging by what you have written, I think I would pass on that purchase. The "hum-like" noise would be my major concern. This could simply be a noisy ballast ( which would need to be replaced), or possibly one of the main transformers. If a transformer, perhaps the laminates are just loose ? I assume that at least one of the output tubes is "bad"-if you can't get them there, and you can't import parts---well--what are you going to do ?
Playing the adjoining record would be my next concern--this could indicate a problem in the "search unit stopping switch", which would require a new switch be installed. Other mechanical "stuff" seems to be mostly due to "sitting"/ lack of lubrication--
Cosmetic problems can be cleaned and painted, usually-- I don't have any idea if that frame is metal, or plastic?
Ron Rich

Mark, the conditions you describe would be pretty much standard for a neglected machine of that age. In the USA where parts are available I'd consider this a routine restoration. I a place where this is questionable you may want to look elsewhere.

I'll give my impressions point-by-point:

Sound: Very low volume

Totally common. Most likely one or more of the output tubes is operating with burnt G-2 resistor (simple 100 ohm) and probably bad 12AX7's. The capacitors in the preamp will have to be replaced. All of these are common parts and should be available to you. Broken wire at the pickup plug on the mech is very common and will kill a channel.

N4 played the record next to the one I meant to play.

Several possibilities here: Failing stop switch (microswitch) in the stopping switch. this is no big deal and thorough washing often will fix this well enough for home use. A more serious condition is that the stopping switch assembly bearing has excessive wear causing it to wobble and not accurately catch-stop at the selected pin. This would normally affect both sides however and careful adjustment can compensate for this. Another, more serious condition is a broken tooth on the sprag wheel that accurately detents the magazine. this would normally affect both sides of a record but you would either need to examine it directly (it is under the magazine) or have tested enough selections to have seen a pattern. Broken sprag wheels are -very- rare. It is possible that the search unit has been d--ked with and the hammers are maladjusted. This will show up on both A&B side and be consistent. Given the amount of dirt i suspect these problems are really all about contacts and cleaning with maybe some minor adjustment as mentioned.

When plugged in, even without playing, a very stron "hum-like" noise can be heard

This is most likely the latchbar solenoid. If the keys lock and the machine never runs out of credit -that is your problem. The latchbars (behind the keyboard) in all those older Rowe are noisy if they have been left energized too long and too often. There are some mitigation efforts that can be taken, If I had the machine in front of me I'd know instantly where it comes from. Since you have basic operation of both mech and amp, it is unlikely that hum comes from a transformer. Florescent ballast is another suspect, but there are never -that- loud.

I can't be of real help on the cabinet.

Since there are jukeboxes in Argentina, there must be operators. Have you done any searches for them? From what you describe there is likely only a few parts specific to a jukebox that -might- be needed. If you can find an op who used Rowe product and will sell old parts, then go for it. If no one is around (hard to believe in a major city like yours) you should at least get time for a more comprehensive examination of the machine, or forget it.

Rob

Hello normende,

Rob has got it on the button with regards to the possible faults and the noise of the latch bar solenoid.

you can fix all the mechanical problems the cabinet trim is what makes or breaks the deal, replacement parts will not be cheap and you may be struggling for availability.

Regards
Alan

Hi,

I really appreciate your help. You've given me a lot of tips and info to decide what to do.

I've been reading what you guys wrote over and over to make sure I understood everything correctly, as English is not my native language and also because there are a lot of specific words related to mechanics I needed to picture in my mind

I think I will pass this one. If the cabinet was in mint condition, I would have taken the risk and would have gone ahead with the restoration. Because of the issue to get spares down here, I would have accepted the mismatch in the record selection. I am confident about restoring amps so that wouldn't have been a problem, with that and fixing the solenoid noise I would have been happy.

Thanks a lot to all of you for your support and invaluable tips. If in the future I come across with another one (hopefuly) I will be back