Giant Gramophone

This may tax the memories of even some of the long time collectors, but about 15-20 years ago, a friend gave me some article copies culled from a few British Gramophone (hobby) publications describing homemade gramophones based, more or less, on the EMG/Ginn gramophones.

One was fitted with a GIANT gramophone horn with a square mouth, about the size of a small stage. The horn, itself, was exponential in design, and part of it ran through the building's floor boards. Its overall shape was that of a cygnet horn. In front of the horn's mouth, if I remember right, was the Gramophone. I've enclosed a rough illustration of this machine--based on my memory of the illustration in the article.



Or see -- http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/2275 ... one1hg.jpg


I've forgotten where this was located -- "Something Hall" -- and I was told, several years ago, that the owner/builder passed away, the estate sold, and the gramophone dismantled. What became of it, I don't know.

I'm curious to know if any photos of this were ever taken, or if any of the regular posters on this site ever saw/listened to this gramophone. Perhaps they could share their impressions.

Have passed your Post on to the author of the book "The EMG Story".

Kind regards
Ian Calderbank
Website http://www.gramophones.info/

Hi JOE_DS

I'm not familiar with the set-up you describe and wonderfully illustrate but some years ago I visited Nimbus Records in Monmouth, Wales, UK to see / hear Big Bertha which was a similar machine with a nine foot diameter fibreglass horn of huge length and again, exponential expansion rate. The whole thing was connected to an adapted EMG soundbox and spinning on a Technics direct-drive turntable housed in a purpose-made wooden case. Had those so-called experts learnt nothing? The best decks are belt driven and not direct drive! The horn was at least straight though and based on the purist vision and science of the likes of the great Percy Wilson.

To enhance and further amplify the sound for a brief evening concert performance they installed a low-level sonic microphone about six feet away from the centre of the horn mouth to gently amplify the sound which was rather disappointingly thin and quiet! They use this process called Ambi-Sonic (I think) for the Prima Vocie series of CD's of remastered

classics

.

It was all very interesting to see and hear but the overwhelming feeling many of us had was that the recording people had somehow missed the point at bit with what they were doing. AND whilst I do loke big EMG horns I couldn't live with that monster in my house!

Oh yes! I'm very familiar with the Nimbus Prima Voice series, and have a few CDs. I've see one photo of the horn ---->



...and sound box --->



with the description of the transfer process -- http://www.wyastone.co.uk/nrl/pv_transfer.html on their web site -- Main Page: http://www.wyastone.co.uk/nrl/

I read a short article, a few years ago, describing a visit to the recording studio, which a friend passed along to me. I remember that the author also mentioned that the volume produced by the horn was surprisingly soft.

Interestingly, The Victor Talking Machine Company produced an Orthophonic Victrola equipped with a GIANT folded horn, known as the Auditorium Orthophonic Victrola. -- A description can be found here -- http://www.hifi-museum.com/lib/Best_Spkr.pdf (From: http://www.hifi-museum.com/lib/lib.htm)

In the case of the Auditorium Orthophonic Victrola, supplemental electrical amplification was used to compensate for the horn's extreme length. (The Orthophonic sound box, of course, was matched to the output of the Credenza's six foot horn.)

As for the few Nimbus Prima Voice recordings I have, I'm amazed at the purity of the sound, especially the acoustic recordings. (My favorite one is "McCormack In Song," -- NI 7854)

Yes, indeed!

You will note the use of the Expert Dynamic 4-spring soundbox. By 1935 most people in the trade thought that this particular soundbox was just about as good as any acoustic pickup in existence and arguably it was never bettered. I've seen many EMG's which have been upgraded to this soundbox, something which must have caused some consternation at EMG at Grape St.!

This soundbox was very likely a riposte to the EMG 10B design (also 4-spring) given that early Expert machines (1930-34) would only have had the 2-spring box and the rivalry between Expert and EMG would have been extremely intense as they were always trying to outdo each other.

Have you read The EMG Story?

Hi Steve:

Thanks for the information! I've heard of the book, but do not have a copy--yet. (I do have a copy of D. Cooper's "The Perfect Portable," however.)

I've kind of been on vacation from the (antique phonograph/gramophone) hobby for the past six months or so. I do this every once in awhile to "see where I've been, where I am now, and where I want to go." Back in the late 1990s, I took a three year hiatus after selling off several of my machines. I'm still on "semi-vacation," devoting most of my free time to other interests/projects, but plan to return soon, and perhaps start to acquire a few more records, books, etc., funds permitting. In the meantime, I've been checking this site a few times per day to see what progress (in terms of posts/visitors) has been made. I'm hopeful that things will pick up soon.

Hi Joe_DS - that's quite interesting and I think you're right to do this. It does help to clear the mind, and when you eventually return to it you can normally put everything into better context and either consolidate your collection or restart! I did the same 8 years ago and stopped for nearly 3 years. My interest was still there but I didn't attend any fairs, auctions etc and this was before the days of internet shopping (for me at least!) as well. My collection was static but when I started to be more active again, I more or less straight away sold some machines that I'd had since the beginning to make way for better ones. I too am now slipping into a hibernation mode as far as buying more machines is concerned. There are very few things I actually want and I am also aware that the prices are slipping as well. I wouldn't invest heavily at present as I feel it is likely that in a few years time, the machines will be worth a fraction of what they are today. It is good to live with what you already have for a period of time without watching what else is out there. If you're anything like me as a collector, the chances are that you too will rethink some of your acquisitions and possibly slim your collection down as a first move when you start up again. I do know a few collectors who periodically (like clockwork) sell their entire collections and start over with a completely different mindset. I think in these cases the actual act of collecting is as important to them as OWNING and enjoying the machines when they've got them? The continual turning over of machines does give you the opportunity to have owned more in the long-run, I guess? Like yourself, I too will keep watching this board (not the other one either) periodically. See you later.

Whilst away from the collecting field it is a good opportunity to catch up on some reading! I can very highly recommend the Francis James book The EMG Story - I've just finished re-reading it for the third time and will say that it has been by far my favourite read of all the gramophone books I've seen. I wasn't overly impressed with Dave Cooper's book to be honest and found some of the comments discussed on this board some time ago quite interesting. Has anyone managed to play those Cd's that come with it yet? I also think Proudfoot's book is still excellent as an overview of the various companies which produced machines. There aren't all that many books written on the subject (either specialising in one company's output or general reference material) though, are there?

Hi Steve:

I've always been more of an enthusiast than a collector--never really hanging onto anything I've owned. Over the past, nearly 30 years, I've owned about 30 different gramophones or "talking machines,"--mostly portables--along with about a dozen cabinet/tabletop models. At this time, my collection consists of just three machines-- A Victor V (equipped with a 24" flower horn) --



... a VV-4-40 Orthophonic similar to this model:


From -- http://www.oldcrank.com/collection/vv4-40/vv4-40.html

(Mine is missing the "stretcher" which runs between the four legs.)

....and an unbranded suitcase portable that's chrome plated on the interior --



The VV 4-40 is actually a replacement for a Credenza I once owned. With it's 4 3/4 foot folded horn and 16"x17" mouth, it pumps out a surprising amount of bass--at least down to about 125 HZ based on a comparison I've made wish some small Bose speakers that are rated the same, but it does not quite have the "concert hall" ambiance that a well-restored Credenza provides with it's six foot folded horn. (I recently sealed the tone arm pivot, packing the retainer ring with heavy grease--based on a suggestion I read on the OTVMMB--and it made a tremendous improvement in the sound quality.)

As for books, I do have Robert Baumbach's excellent Victor books -- "Look for the Dog," and "The Victor Data Book," which, together, provide detailed information about all of the models produced by The Victor Talking Machine Company. I also have Baumbach's "Columbia Phonograph Companion, Vol. 2" which profiles "most" of the disc-playing Columbia phonographs.

Of course, no "phonograph library" would be complete without "From Tinfoil to Stereo," and "The Fabulous Phonograph." I have copies of both books. While somewhat outdated--both were originally written in the 1950s--they still are useful.

I did have a copy of Proudfoot's Gramophone/Phonograph book, but gave my copy to a good friend about ten years ago. As you note, it is full of valuable information.

BTW, back on the subject of my original post concerning the Giant Horn Gramophone, I wrote to the person who originally gave me the article, and he supplied the missing information. I will post that in a new message shortly.

I wrote to R.J. Wakeman, a well known US based collector, who originally supplied me with copies of the article describing what is possibly the largest gramophone ever constructed for "home usage." He was able to supply me with the following information:

The article, "The Big Daddy Of Them All" by Jim Goodall, appeared in the July 1980 issue (#115) of the Hillandale News.

The author, Mr. Goodall, was invited to visit Douglas Fitzpatrick, at his residence at Sheringham Hall, to see and hear his home-constructed gramophone.

As Mr. Wakeman noted:

"Mr. Goodall spent two days at the hall visiting with Mr. Fitzpartick and listening to the giant horn gramophone--using different soundboxes and different types of needles. According to Mr. Goodall the listening results were hardly short of fabulous--for all types of records--operatic, concert, full orchestra--acoustic or electric.

"Mr. FItzpatrick started to design and build his gramophone ten years earlier in 1970; it measured 24 feet from the soundbox to the open end of the horn, which is square and measured 8 feet wide by 5 feet high.... The throat and bell of the horn were built of panels of hardboard varnished on the inside and cut to conform to the curvatures as designed by Mr. Fitzpatrick. The outside of the horn was braced with wooden struts strategically placed to eliminate any resonance in any of the panels. Mr. Fitzpatrick took the time and patience to design the horn, especially the curves and he more than once changed the basic design through the process of trial and error.

"Mr. Fitzpatrick's regular listening soundbox was a modified E.M.G. where he replaced the original aluminum diaphragm with a plastic one 'rescued' from a certain type of stethoscope of American design... Mr. Goodall brought several soundboxes with him to test on the giant gramophone and both he and Mr. Fitzpatrick were surprised how excellent the H.M.V. #4 soundbox performed.

"Mr. Goodall made tape recordings of his listening efforts; on the second day Mr. Fitzpatrick left Mr. Goodall on his own to listen and record as he wished. These tape recordings may be all that is (was) we have left of this amazing gramophone. There are no photographs of the gramophone and his giant horn, but Mr. Goodall did have a simple line drawing in the article."

"Evidently Mr. Fitzpatrick is deceased or has sold Sheringham Hall as I understand the gramophone is dismantled and only a few pieces still exist. No doubt new owners of the hall would not have appreciated such a monstrous device in their music room, especially the big holes in the flooring. Mr. Goodall is also deceased--he died about twelve years ago."

Mr. Wakeman also pointed out that the City of London Phonograph and Gramophone Society changed the name of their quarterly journal from "Hillandale News" to "For The Record."

Hi Joe_DS - well with just the 3 machines at present, at least you haven't got too much to worry about! I do admire the VV-4-40 - it is a real beauty. Is the horn on the Victor V an original Victor horn? It's quite amazing! No, I can't help you either to identify that portable, unfortunately. Can I ask you how do you determine / measure the frequency response / output of a machine ie you mention 125Hz, but how can you measure this or lower frequencies? I did join in the debate on the other board about sealing tone-arm pivots etc. but I left confused. What part is everybody taking apart to reseal with new gaskets and grease? With your obvious skill for drawing, is there any chance of a diagram, please? I'm a bit reluctant to take apart my own machines when the screw heads are mint and there is no obvious fault with leakage and everything fits tightly and smoothly together. I remain a sceptic about it but a diagram might just pursuade me to try it anyway! Look forward to the info' on the Giant shortly....

Hi Steve:

Hi Steve:

Is the horn on the Victor V an original Victor horn? It's quite amazing!

No, this is an after-market horn originally supplied by an outside vendor for use on a variety of talking machines produced at the time. At some point, probably in the 1950s, it was repainted with hand painted flowers. (When up close, you can see the brush strokes!) I was going to refinish it, but have received so many compliments that I decided to leave it as it was when I acquired it. The horn that came with my Victor V -- which was in pieces when I acquired it -- was actually a Columbia style nickel plated horn that had been soldered to a Victor V elbow. I opted for the replacement because the Columbia horn was suspended too low over the cabinet.
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Can I ask you how do you determine / measure the frequency response / output of a machine ie you mention 125 Hz, but how can you measure this or lower frequencies?

The comparison I made was between the 4-40's horn and a pair of Bose speakers I own, that are rated to a low of 125 Hz. Since it was based on what I could physically hear, of course, it's purely subjective, and unfortunately not very scientific. Basically, I test played some organ selections to see what the differences were. From what I could hear, the 4-40's horn is able to pump out about the same amount of bass as my Bose speakers.

I used to have a copy of a Victor frequency tester record--I forget what it was specifically labeled--which had samples of various (constant) tone frequencies between 5000-100 Hz. (I think these were used by radio stations?) There were about a dozen tracks--six on each side of the record--and each was devoted to a different frequency, and matched to the output of the Orthophonic Victrola. (This was a pre-1930 pressing with a VE inside an oval pressed into the shellac.) Unfortunately, I sat on that record about ten years ago, and have yet to find another.
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I did join in the debate on the other board about sealing tone-arm pivots etc. but I left confused. What part is everybody taking apart to reseal with new gaskets and grease?

After work today, I'll look over the posts to see what they were talking about. I suspect that they meant the felt gasket that sits UNDER the base of the earlier style Orthophonic tone arm --

Here are some basic hints for making the tonearm as air tight as possible:



The ring coupling in the above illustration is "locked" in place with screws visible from the under side of the tone arm. These must be loosened before the ring is turned.
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I should add that the above tone arm is from an early production (probably circa 1926) Orthophonic Victrola. Later models used a different tone arm support, similar to the pre-Orthophonic models, with a top mount pivot.



Whether there is a felt gasket under the bottom of the support, I don't know. Mine is stuck in place and cannot be removed. (To ensure air-tightness in this area, I squirted heavy grease between the edge of the tone arm, and the rim of the support.)

Yes, I've actually applied grease to the tone-arm joint which is fairly easy and straightforward to do. I'm a bit reluctant to apply any kind of tape though to the tone-arm end in case of damage to the plating in the long-term. I have applied a little clear High Vacuum Grease around the end where the soundbox engages to hopefully seal any air leaks there. HVG is supposed to seal water under high pressure so surely it must work with a little air as well?

I have not attempted to remove the tone-arm from its mounting to investigate the tone-arm to horn assembly and to apply grease etc. My view has been (to which a good deal of scorn was poured on on the other message board) if it is tight and well clamped together like the day it was new, isn't it a bit counter-productive to pull everything apart, just to try to seal it all back again? If I was assembling a machine today from separate parts then that would be a different story and I would do it!

The debate goes on!......

Hi Steve:

I've never heard that Teflon tape would be harmful to plated surfaces. I don't know if you've ever used it for home plumbing projects, but it's basically a very thin strip of Teflon plastic--extremely flexible and non-sticky (not coated with glue). This is useful if the sound box does not fit tightly onto the end of the tone arm. If the fit is, otherwise, secure, then heavy grease should work just as well to fill in any tiny gaps.

As for the felt gasket under the base of the tone arm, described above, I know when I removed my erstwhile Credenza's tone arm, the gasket was coated with the remains of dried-out, powdery grease. (Somehow, air had gotten into the chamber, and dried the grease out over time, or perhaps the grease had just deteriorated.) Nonetheless, I can understand your decision to leave this as-is, especially if everything is in pristine condition, and the plate is firmly attached to the cabinet. (Mine was not.)

BTW, I'm curious. What Victor Orthophonic models do you have?

Hi Joe_DS - I don't have any Victor machines as I live in the UK where Victor couldn't sell machines for obvious reasons. I collect HMV machines among other quality makes and I have (Ortho-equivalents) HMV models 194 (currently for sale and advertised elsewhere on this board) and 202.