Seeburg M100c replacement needles

I have a Seeburg M100C I am working on and was wondering if you guys could help me with finding replacement needles. Where is the best place? I have the red cartridge currently on the machine. It's my understanding I can replace the needles in the cartridge itself or get a new cartridge with needles. Some options I've seen are pretty pricey. Also, what factors should I consider? Probably mostly playing 45's from the 60's and 70's on the jukebox.

- Brian

Hi Brian,
You can get them from any of the vendors listed above--your "best bet" today,IMHO, is to purchase a set, of the "new" mono/stereo compatible needles. Once again, IMHO, the only thing slightly better is to find a Pickering 345-03D--however, they are NOT just plug and play, and needles are like hen's teeth for them. The vendors generally will tell you that the Yellow housed needles they sell, for that cartridge, are correct replacements for all colors---but that ain't true. There are also several "aftermarket" carts for sale, none of which I care for. Ron Rich

I also have to replace the needles on my M100C and have the Pickering 345-03D. I have googled/searched and certainly there are many comments that all the modern replacements are not as good as originals, but, assuming I use one of the vendors mentioned in Ron's sticky above, anyone got any strong feelings either way on these:

Victory Glass - ("new and improved") $40 /pair
needles4jukeboxes -("latest version") $23.99 / pair
jukeboxusa- $30 /pair

I usually stick to "you get what you pay for" - valid in this case?

Why do you think you need to replace the needles ? If you have the green ones, and the needle pressure/balance is set correctly, they last "forever"--If the support shank is good, have them re-tipped, if need be --
IMHO, all of them ("yellows") available today are fair, to good--very inconsistent in quality, and mostly a compromise on the supporting shank.
Ron Rich

BGE1217 wrote:I have a Seeburg M100C I am working on and was wondering if you guys could help me with finding replacement needles. Where is the best place? I have the red cartridge currently on the machine. It's my understanding I can replace the needles in the cartridge itself or get a new cartridge with needles. Some options I've seen are pretty pricey. Also, what factors should I consider? Probably mostly playing 45's from the 60's and 70's on the jukebox.
- Brian

Brian, now that decent styli are again available for the redhead, I consider that the most practical option. If you are using late 60-on records that are stereo, you will want the stereo compatible versions. These do have somewhat lower output than the mono "spikes" but are more compliant.

As for other options. There is no real sub for the later cart that used the yellow styli, but as Ron mentioned it isn't just a drop-in.

If you use the retrofit cart called 345-03D, it will be necessary to cut down the counterweights to get it to balance properly: http://s1192.photobucket.com/user/Rob-N ... ort=2&o=60

Another option is to use a later stereo tonearm either by itself or with the entire cart and cradle assembly such as what I used in this VL: http://s1192.photobucket.com/user/Rob-N ... ort=2&o=69

An additional complication in using the later cradle on the pre-Tormat machines is that on the earlier machines the trip switch directly switches the trip coil. The later cradle assembly used a delicate magnetic reed switch which can not handle the current and a relay must be added to switch the trip coil.

The later carts (post 1966 and 345-03D) do give superior sound, but integrating them is a bit complicated.

Rob-NYC

If using a 340/345 type cart, you can add weight to the top, rather then attempting to cut the bottom weight. I just use an old fishing weight, pound it, file it down, paint it black, so it appears to be an original part of the cart, and epoxy it to the top of the cartridge. ( If you have a copy of my Seeburg Mechanism Guide, the cover shows a model B with the 345-03D installed that has the weight on it--also, added the reproduced "sticker" to that one---The VL shown, has the whole "newer" style pick-up cradle installed.) Ron Rich

Ron Rich wrote:Why do you think you need to replace the needles ? If you have the green ones, and the needle pressure/balance is set correctly, they last "forever"--If the support shank is good, have them re-tipped, if need be --
IMHO, all of them ("yellows") available today are fair, to good--very inconsistent in quality, and mostly a compromise on the supporting shank.
Ron Rich

I'm going to start a new thread as I feel I have jumped in on Brian's (apologies, Brian)

So if I purchase the "Pickering Mono redhead" on this page: http://www.needles4jukeboxes.com/seeburg_needles.htm, thenI should not need to mess with the balance? And this would also play better when playing both mono and stereo 45's?

- Brian

Correct.

I would run the pressure springs all the way down with the loop ears down to get the tracking pressure as low as possible. 3 gram is ideal here. Make sure the arm assembly is balanced and the trip switch pressure adjustment is as far down as possible without it tripping on it's own.

I know Ron won't agree but I eliminate the tonearm damping action on all my machines as well.

Rob/NYC

Rob-NYC wrote:Correct.

I would run the pressure springs all the way down with the loop ears down to get the tracking pressure as low as possible. 3 gram is ideal here. Make sure the arm assembly is balanced and the trip switch pressure adjustment is as far down as possible without it tripping on it's own.

I know Ron won't agree but I eliminate the tonearm damping action on all my machines as well.

Rob/NYC

I don't understand why any "tonearm damping" would be required at all, particularly with any light-tracking cartridges.
I do know those jukebox tonearms are bulky, clunky, and poorly designed.
Damping an arm with a warped record is a disaster, for the record, the needle, and the sound.
It's a shame that no one took to designing a retrofit arm assembly out of carbon fiber, titanium, or some other light materials to increase their "response".
And add in a nice ball-bearing pivot assembly like in domestic turntables.

Matt, we are in conditional agreement here.

I agree that damping was unnecessary and I eliminate it on all the Seeburgs I use. The thinking was that the somewhat steep setdown slope caused the stylus to land too hard. Another reason given to me from a Seeburg tech was that it lessened the tendency of skipping when people jostled the machine. My opinion: "whatever". After the SS160 was introduced in fall 1966, Seeburg began using a variant of the V15 Pickering series. In fact you can cut away the plastic from a domestic V15 stylus and use it in a Seeburg cart -something I'll have to go back to now that original styli are NLA.

I do know those jukebox tonearms are bulky, clunky, and poorly designed.

Here is where the "conditional' part comes in. I'll give reader a brief rundown on juke tonearms post 1955:

Seeburg: Lightweight and relatively low mass. Easily capable of 2-3 gm tracking. Even with the needle bearing there was little discernible friction. The pressure springs are high resolution and the pressure remains constant through the normal warp deviations. No real mods needed.

Pre-Rowe AMI: Lousy as built. massive and unbalanced with crude lateral bearing made worse by the lack of a counterweight. Kiddie phono shit. However, get rid of that torsion spring and add a counterweight along with a gentler trip switch and they'll track perfectly @3gm. I've tested them @2gm but settled on 3 as best choice.
http://s1192.photobucket.com/user/Rob-N ... ort=2&o=13 That is a modded arm w/ counterweight, lighter wires and improved trip sw.

Ami-Rowe (Triangle era) 1100-1200 Series (1962-1978) were excellent with counterweight simple but low friction lateral and magnetic reed trip. The only changes I make are to eliminate the "no record" contact leads as they just add drag. I've successfully tracked these arms @1gm though I run them @ 2 commercially. Setting them up optimally can be tricky due to some rather riggy "adjustment" procedures. There are also two anti-skate fingers that act on the trip magnet to prevent the arm from bouncing into the play grooves at the beginning of a record. A lot of op's didn't bother to set these and just turned up the weight. Typical.

1950's Rock-ola: Crapp-o arms with poor "bearings" and kiddie phono weight spring. Again, add a counterweight and lighter wires these arms will be good for 3gm tracking. Oddly, the trip switch just a pair of gentle leaf blades and is Ok as-is.

In the 60's they went to the "Accu-track" a low mass arm but kept a stupid torsion spring. Get rid of that, add a counterweight and you have one of the best arms in that industry.

Wurlitzer...1955-1970....Eh......add a better cart, lighter wires mod the trip sw and you get down to 3-4gm. The arms are too massive and bearing too simple for those to ever be great trackers. I use a Pickering V15 DAT or NPAC in those.

That's my two-cents-and-change on the tonearm issue.

Rob