Need help identifying this phono...

Greetings all -

I have added this phonograph to my collection but i'm not sure what it is! Has anyone seen this before? ...or can help me shed some light on this? It cranks spins and plays... it is also very heavy, all solid metal.

Did you get that off ebay?? I saw one not so long ago, but I think I only copied the pictures, but not the brand name. I'll have to wade through the thousands of pics and check. I remember thinking at the time what a cool phono it was! Good score.

No, not an ebay purchase. The previous owner (whose uncle was the actual phonograph collector) had noted that it was possibly a "Heleodograph circa 1916"... but I haven't found anything relating to that name.

It plays vertical cut records.

I've never heard of a "Heleodograph," and nothing similar appears in the list on this page -- http://www.gracyk.com/makers.shtml

That particular style seems to have been quite popular in the late teens through the early 1920s. There's one that's similar, though more ornate and equipped to play standard (lateral cut) type 78s, illustrated on page 215 of "The Talking Machine Compendium" by Fabrizio and Paul. It's identified as "The Universal." (No relationship to the "Universal Talking Machine Co.) Apparently, these were sold under a number of brand names. I remember seeing a photo of one, years ago, with a white enamel painted cabinet, and decorated with toy soldiers--obviously sold as a "kiddie phono."

As Record-changer noted, the one you have--with the sound box positioned so that the mica faces forward--is designed to play vertical cut (hill-and-dale) recordings, in which the groove is modulated up and down. Pathe and Edison Diamond Disc records are the most commonly found vertical cut records. Each requires the use of a special jewel tipped stylus--sapphire for Pathe; diamond for Edison. (Never use a steel needle to play either type of record.)

If you try to play a standard (lateral cut) 78 rpm record, such as the type produced by Victor, Columbia, Brunswick, Decca, etc.--with the sound box in that position--you will ruin it. The sound box must be positioned with the mica facing to the right in order for the needle to track the sideways motion of the groove.

The tone arm mounting on your machine, by the way, is similar to some I've seen on Pathe phonographs. I'm not sure if they ever sold a model like this, however.

Wow! Good call, tried an Edison disc on it and sounds great... was this simply from the needle angle or do you know anything about the unit itself?

...and is it ok to play Edison discs on "needle" players?

Phonophan79 wrote:Wow! Good call, tried an Edison disc on it and sounds great... was this simply from the needle angle or do you know anything about the unit itself?

...and is it ok to play Edison discs on "needle" players?

The way a sound box works is that the needle bar is designed to pivot back and forth on its mounting, moving the diaphragm in the same direction. When the sound box is positioned so that the mica faces to the right, the needle bar/diaphragm is moved right and left, corresponding to the modulation of a conventional lateral cut 78 rpm record. When the sound box is positioned so that the mica faces forward--as is the case with your phonograph--the needle bar is able to move up and down--in the direction a vertical cut groove is modulated.

Unfortunately, even though it is a vertically cut record, an Edison Diamond Disc record should NOT be played on this particular machine--unless you have a special diamond tipped stylus. A steel needle will cut into the record's surface and chisel it out after just one or two plays.

Keep in mind, Edison Diamond Disc records were specifically designed to be played on an Edison Diamond Disc phonograph, using a special size diamond tip stylus that was permanently mounted in the reproducer. They could also be played on "off brand" machines equipped with the "universal" style tone arm--AND a special diamond tipped stylus. (Brunswick's Ultona tone arm was probably the best one designed to play all types of records.) In spite of this, Edison warned against playing his company's records on anything but a Diamond Disc phonograph.

I'd say, if you were able to acquire a diamond tipped stylus, with a tip that exactly matches the ones installed in the Diamond Disc reproducer, you would probably do minimal damage to the Edison brand records. (Again, using a conventional steel needle will wear them out in no time.) As an alternative, you could probably safely use a thorn needle, but how well that would hold up, I don't know.

Thanks much everyone!

What are vertical cut labels are playble with this unit?

Phonophan79 wrote:Thanks much everyone!

What are vertical cut labels are playble with this unit?

If I were you, I'd try to locate some Pathe records. They are fairly common, and come up for sale on auction sites such as eBay, quite often.

To start with, you should read up on Pathe records, so you are able to identify the ones you want. (Pathe also produced standard needle cut--lateral--78s later in production, around 1920 These are normally marked "needle cut" or Path

I notice that Elyria, Ohio seems to be the address of a number of US based phono makers and also General Industries who made springs, motors and other associated hardware for machines?

Is this not more than mere coincidence? Did G.E. not actually make a number of different machines for different companies and put the badge-engineered name on?

If anyone has got any Pathe records for sale, PLEASE let me know! I can never find any anywhere. I think the Ebay idea can be a bit risky, when you consider postage costs / potential breakages, uncooperative sellers etc.?

In 15 odd years of collecting i have never seen a single Pathe record anywhere amongst old boxes of shellac records - and I've seen thousands of records!

There are a number of variant designs of this machine discussed from different "makers" and they do turn up on Ebay from time to time.

FINALLY - Pathe did licence their hardware and reproducers for the "Diamond" portable which was a more compact "miniature" box camera type folding portable and not like this one.

Steve

STEVE wrote:I notice that Elyria, Ohio seems to be the address of a number of US based phono makers and also General Industries who made springs, motors and other associated hardware for machines?

Is this not more than mere coincidence? Did G.E. not actually make a number of different machines for different companies and put the badge-engineered name on?

My understanding is, that's exactly what they did, as well as to supply the components to furniture manufactures. RJ Wakeman touches on this in the article he wrote for Tim Gracyk's publication -- http://www.gracyk.com/makers.shtml

STEVE wrote:In 15 odd years of collecting i have never seen a single Pathe record anywhere amongst old boxes of shellac records - and I've seen thousands of records!...

I had no idea that Pathe' records had become so scarce. When I lived in the Midwest (Minnesota), I used to see boxes of them at fleamarkets, right along side the Victors, Columbia's etc. I'd also spot them at junk shops and at fleamarkets during the short period I lived in the Washington DC area. But, come to think of it, I've only come across a couple of Pathe (vertical cut) records in the Bay area during the 20 years I've lived out here.

Phonophan79 wrote:Wow! Good call, tried an Edison disc on it and sounds great... was this simply from the needle angle or do you know anything about the unit itself?

...and is it ok to play Edison discs on "needle" players?

The linkage from the needle to the sound box told me.

Steel needles and high tracking forces will quickly wear out Edison records. But it will play the following shellac vertical records:

Aeolian - All records

Columbia - large light blue label, no runout grooves

Emerson - to 1918 (these are recorded diagonal, and play on vertical or lateral)

Genett - All records

Majestic - to 1918

Paramount - to 1918

Okeh - to 1918

Pathe - 1926-1931 10" records. (earlier records and larger records used a stylus 3 times as large, later records are lateral)

Vocalion - to 1919

Note that all except Pathe and Edison changed to lateral when the Victor-Columbia patent-pool expired.

STEVE wrote:I notice that Elyria, Ohio seems to be the address of a number of US based phono makers and also General Industries who made springs, motors and other associated hardware for machines?

Is this not more than mere coincidence? Did G.E. not actually make a number of different machines for different companies and put the badge-engineered name on?

If anyone has got any Pathe records for sale, PLEASE let me know! I can never find any anywhere. I think the Ebay idea can be a bit risky, when you consider postage costs / potential breakages, uncooperative sellers etc.?

In 15 odd years of collecting i have never seen a single Pathe record anywhere amongst old boxes of shellac records - and I've seen thousands of records!

There are a number of variant designs of this machine discussed from different "makers" and they do turn up on Ebay from time to time.

FINALLY - Pathe did licence their hardware and reproducers for the "Diamond" portable which was a more compact "miniature" box camera type folding portable and not like this one.

Steve

Don't confuse General Industries, General Instrument, and General Electric. They were competitors.

General Industries was known for quite a few things:

- Bendix (brakes, starters, gearboxes, and bicycle hubs - including the automatic transmission for bicycles I had)

- Automotive parts

- They made some knife-type record changers before World War II.

- They made the Farnsworth/Panamuse record changers, and all of the Capehart changers except the turnover changer. They also sold some under the Bendix name.

- They made the first successful umbrella spindle record changer, the Farnsworth P72 (also known as the Capehart Gravity Changer).

On the other hand, General Instrument was one of the three American companies making push-type changers before World War II.

Meanwhile, General Electric started out making consoles with the RCA throwoff changers, and then used Milwaukee-Erwood changers until the mid 1950s. They didn't make their own record changers until they bought out Glaser-Steers in 1965.


There are several reasons you don't find many Pathe records in the US:

- Most of Pathe's sales were in France.

- Pathe was out of action for a while during and after World War I.

- Import restrictions in the 1930s due to the depression.

- Many Pathe recordings were licensed to US companies, who "cooked" the recordings to US lateral standards and put them on the US labels.

- Many Pathe recordings were sold in other countries on their foreign sales labels.

- Most people didn't buy Pathe recordings in the US, because:
--- They required a special player which played nothing else.
--- They didn't use a speed lower than 90 rpm until 1926.
--- Their records required a special stylus until 1926.
--- Most of their records before 1926 were larger than 12".
--- They were one of only two companies making vertical records after 1919.

- Collectors who don't understand the difference between Pathe records and other brands, thought they had bad pressings, and bought up multiple copies, hoping they got one which would play.

This also happened with early Columbias, because they didn't understand that Columbia started out using vertical cut.

Steve,

There are a number of Path

As Neophone noted, there is no data indicating that Columbia ever produced vertical cut disc recordings for general sale--under its own brand name--other than the early discs supplied for/with the Toy model.
(Columbia, did, of course, issue special vertical cut pressings on a per-client basis, as has been discussed in an earlier post string.)

Record Changer, I suspect that if your record bears the Columbia label and is vertically cut, it may have been a special pressing. There's also a very slight possibility that you may have stumbled upon one of the test pressing done circa 1910.

There's an all too brief reference to this in the Phono-L digest archives, though I do not have the Columbia Master Book to verify this claim --

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Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 18:00:03 -0400
From: David Lennick <DELETED>
Subject: [78-l] Columbia vertical cuts?

I was just checking "Silver Bell" by Prince's Band (flip of St. Louis Tickle)
in the Columbia Master Books and was surprised to find a notation that this and
some other sides were "also mastered as a vertical test" in September 1910. Has
anyone ever heard of Columbia experimenting with vertical cut flat discs?

dl
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As for Columbia's entry into the disc record business, there are a number of excellent books that cover this in detail. One of the more readable accounts can be found in Fabrizio and Paul's "The Talking Machine--An Illustrated Compendium." This is also well covered in Welch & Read's "From Tinfoil to Stereo;" and Baumbach's "Columbia Phonograph Companion, Vol. II."

For more general information, see:
http://www.intertique.com/TheColumbiaGr ... onola.html
http://www.davidsarnoff.org/vtm-chapter5.html (mentioning the importance of the Jones patent)
http://history.sandiego.edu/gen/recordi ... phone.html
http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/berlhtml/berlgramo.html (mentioning The Graphophone Co's attempts to invade the disc market and drive Berliner out of business)

If you have a chance, please post a photo of the record you mentioned, or supply the record #, artist, etc., that appears on its label. That may help others pinpoint exactly what this is.