Have you been deliberately mislead by an expert dealer?

Hello

Some of you whom regularly visit this board will probably recognise that (at least in terms of attempting to answer questions) I am a regular contributor to the topics discussed. A few of you I know personally, most I do not.

As a private collector I am interested to learn about other collectors "buying" experiences, especially when the "trade" has been involved, whether good or bad. Have you ever been sold a Crapophone which was described as an "original HMV horn machine"? Have you bought a machine with the odd repro part that you didn't discover until much later on? Has a specialist dealer ever refused to refund your money when the item turns out to be different to their description? Have you had any bad Ebay experiences? When is original paintwork really new paintwork? Are you still awaiting that package in the post that you paid for some weeks ago? Does the "working" machine actually not work at all? Have you unwittingly bought a cobbled together piece?

Many collectors prefer to discover machines for themselves and don't buy from dealers as much because they enjoy the thrill of the chase as ownership of the machine afterwards. Are you one of these people?

I'm hoping to hear some stories either for general consumption on this board (perhaps to serve as a warning for newcomers and other collectors) or directly to the email link below if you prefer. All emails will be treated with absolute confidence. And yes, I do have some horror stories myself!

So what is the purpose of all this and who would we be serving? Well, us, of course!

It could hopefully become a BUYER BEWARE link.

No names please on this forum as it will put pressure on the good moderators to withdraw the topic!

I am 60 years old and have been a collector of one thing or another most of my life. I have found that over the long run the unexpected good surprizes seem to make up for the bad ones but still, you never quite get over the sting of the bad ones. I have received items that were not as nice as described and I also have received items that were much nicer than expected.
Most recently on Ebay (within the last year) I had the winning bid on two separate items for which I sent payment for and never received the item. Thankfully both items were under $20.00 each so it wasn't very costly, just very dis-heartening. Curiously both sellers used P.O. boxes instead of a real address, I guess so you can't track them down. One even had a bogus phone number. Ebay was no help at all and if a transaction goes beyond 30 days, which many do, you can't even leave feedback.
I know I'd never spend a large sum of money without actually holding the item in my hand or seeing it in front of me. How can you spend hundreds or even thousands of dollars on something 1,000s of miles away knowing there are so many scam artists out there. Common sense is your best protection. Before sending money to someone make sure you have an address and phone number you can verify. Collecting is in my blood and I will always be looking for that holy grail item. Still I realize that even the best experts still get fooled sometimes so I still look for the good surprise to make up for the bad expierience.
Happy hunting!!!!!!

I could recite a litany of true (albeit weird) stories that would make Alice's adventures in Wonderland, and the characters she met there, seem perfectly logical and normal. While most of my experience has involved repair facilities that overstated their qualifications, resulting in bumping mainsprings and grinding gears, I have purchased components as well as complete phonographs, that had been vastly misrepresented.

In one case, I bought an Orthophonic sound box, for $75, from a dealer who assured me it was in perfect, ready to use condition. (This was during the early 1990s, and we corresponded via fax.) Since this was the type used on Victor portables--the VV-2-55--and the diaphragm was hidden behind a felt lined mask, I asked him if he would open it and inspect the diaphragm. I told him I did not want one with a dented or torn diaphragm. He assured me that he had looked at it when he replace the ball bearings, and their mounting gaskets, and that the diaphragm was in "absolutely pristine" shape with no tears, bumps, dents or folds.

When I received the sound box and test played it, it sounded very good -- strong bass, solid midrange and sparkling treble. After a few weeks usage, however, I began to notice a slight raspy quality on some loud passages and upper notes. I figured that one of the ball bearings had come loose, so I removed the mask to re-pack the bearings. The ball bearings were fine, but the diaphragm was not only severely dented, by slightly off center, as if it had been twisted sideways. The spider was also slightly bent, and did not lay flat over the diaphragm.

I telephoned the seller, and was curtly informed that it was in perfect condition when it left his shop, so obviously I had done something to it when I removed the mask. (Anyone familiar with this style of sound box knows that this is impossible, since the mask or face plate, does not make contact with the diaphragm, itself.) I was also told that because of its age, the sound box did not come with any warrantee. I set the sound box aside and eventually sold it as a "fixer upper."

In another case I paid $75 for a "reconditioned" Califone phonograph only to find out, about a year later, when it stopped working, that it had never been serviced or even inspected. (Either that or the repair man had carefully put all the dust lining the inside of the cabinet, and clinging to the wires and speaker, back in place after he serviced it!)

A related story involves a seller who sold me parts for a Victor #2 sound box. This happened in 1982, a time when there were relatively few parts suppliers, at least compared to today.

I had ordered four backing screws--at $5.00 each; a mica diaphragm ($5), gaskets ($2), and a needle bar pivot spring ($5). When the shipment arrived, the seller enclosed a note which stated that the "# 2 sound box backing screws were unavailable," and that he did not know when he would get any since he NEVER stocks them--this in spite of the fact that he TOLD me that he had four in perfect condition when I placed the order via phone. I phoned him back and left a polite but firm message on his answering machine that I expected a refund of $20 for the backing screws.

About a month passed, and during that period I was able to locate four replacement screws from The Antique Phonograph Supply Co. I wrote the seller a short note, telling him that I HAD, indeed, located replacement screws from another source. I also told him that I was frankly, "livid" that he had not yet sent me my $20 refund for the screws--which he never sent me. I stressed that all I wanted was a refund.

About seven days later, I received a small package from the seller, containing four screws. He also sent me back the note I had mailed to him, with a scribbled message at the bottom --

"I'm sorry I made you livid. Because you were so insistence that I SEND (???) you the screws, I had to RUIN a perfectly good #2 sound box. I hope you enjoy them!"

I showed this letter to a fellow hobbyist who explained that 90% percent of the parts dealers were not professional business men. (That didn't explain why the seller felt he had to "ruin a perfectly good sound box..." To this day, I wonder what part of "please refund me the $20" the seller didn't understand.)

Thanks to Joe_DS and Sentjourn for kicking off this little topic and sharing some of their problems with us!

My most recent disaster involves a very well known US dealer - so respected in fact as he has written a few books on the subject. Sentjourn states that even experts sometimes make mistakes. This is true as we are only human and no-one can be right all the time.....I'll spare the Abraham Lincoln quotes here! BUT what amazes me is that this fellow who has thirty plus years experience in the business can't see the difference between an original enamelled horn and a badly repainted one. Apparently not anyway?......

The machine was pictured with a bright red horn that was described as being the original finish (as found). A further picture was sent to me attached to an email stating "as you can see the horn's paint is the original". NOW the horn paint (at least with the benefit of camera flash and lack of sharp focus) only looked very bright and shiny and lacking any obvious signs of wear and tear. If I'd had to bet on whether or not it WAS original, I would have bet my mother that is was new paint!

I emailed the seller stating that I had a conern that the paint looked "too good" to be true, the machine must have been kept wrapped in blankets in a cool dry environment away from the light to be that good! The response was a little surprising. No comments were made about dents, chips, scratches or loss of paint ANYWHERE. So the horn must be really good then, would you not agree?

Understanding (following 4 emails from the seller each of which clearly confirm in ever stronger terms) that it was all correct and original, I bought the machine which happened to be quite a rare Pathephone. Ordinarily I would never have bought it had it not been a respected dealer with more knowledge than I have or had it just had an average condition horn. I think the machine was over-priced and allowing for very high postage costs and customs charges, it would have been nonsensical to acquire it.

Believing the condition to be excellent and justifying the price I took the plunge but needless to say, when it arrived it proved I'd been right all along. The horn had been terribly repainted with a paint brush and was SO immediately obvious, I felt very angry, cheated and had the seller been in the UK, I'd have reported him to Trading Standards on principle!

When I emailed the seller I had the patience and politeness to thank him for making such a good job of packing the instrument. BUT my suggestion that he had been wrong all along was received with disbelief. He simply justified his position by reiterating that he was an expert who had written books and had been doing this for over 30 years....it must be me who was wrong! I asked (clearly he wasn't intent on offering me, the very disillusioned customer, any kind of refund) if he would be prepared to swap the horn with another one he had also offered to me with slightly chipped paint and more obviously original and untouched. He refused to do this on the grounds that it would "not be worth it" without asking me if I was prepared to pay postage or not! He claimed my reaction to the horn was purely an "emotional response" which would die down with time and advised me to take " a step back from it for a while".

Many emails later having confessed to me that he was considering telling me where to go, he said he would offer to send me some money to get the horn professionally repainted. This clearly would be missing the point but I knew that nothing else would be on offer and I had no means to legally challenge him either.

Further investigation into the paint revealed that it actually was a green horn in very poor condition which someone had (by the smell of new paint) repainted red in the past year. I sent the evidence to the seller who appeared quite shocked at first and admitted he'd made a mistake. He then confessed that he'd always thought that I was a liar and had believed that he was right all along!

There is STILL no move to offer a complete refund in exchange for the return of the machine or an offer to swap the horn for another similar horn in original condition. The seller has all but ignored the points which I have set out time and time again in emails. I would not have bought this machine in that condition had I known the truth beforehand. I have been defrauded of my money.

So when is an "expert" not always an expert? Clearly everybody makes mistakes - my mistake was to actually believe a so-called expert when I should have trusted my own instincts instead. It is difficult when you buy machines over the internet without the benefit of being able to verify information given beforehand, first hand yourself. I hopefully will have learnt a valuable lesson from this little disaster.

The seller is a terrible businessman and a poor loser. He can't obviously care too much for saving his reputation either. But then again, who am I and what threat could i be to him or his reputation? Making such a huge mistake when judging the machine was one thing, but to ignore a buyer who clearly has very honest grounds to complain about misrepresentation is completely another.

Would I trust this person again? NO. Would I recommend him as an "expert"? NO. If 30 years experience can't provide enough insight into paintwork then I believe he's in the wrong business.

Some collectors have suggested to me that he knew it was all wrong to begin with - the consequences of this statement being true are indeed far reaching.

As an aside, I always wondered if the quotes from other buyers shown on his website were actually genuine or whether they were "written" by the owner of the site himself? If they ARE genuine, then it might appear that his average customer is a new-comer to the hobby and oblivious to the sellers' primary motives and therefore has considerably less knowledge and much lower expectations?

AND unlike Ebay where the negative feedback effectively determines a seller's reputation, a dissatisfied customer of this man, has no voice or opportunity to leave it to let others know what they think about their dealings with him. Don't you just love self-censorship?

I'm sorry you had a bad experience with this seller. Even though you did not mention any names, it is pretty obvious who you are talking about. I assumed his good reputation was deserved -- apparently not. I've had pretty good luck overall. I've been collecting many years, so I can usually tell if something isn't quite right when I examine a prospective purchase in person. I have had dealers try to mislead me, or even lie to me, thinking I was a novice. I don't argue with them. I just walk away. It's a bit harder when you are handling the transaction via e-mail and internet. But even then, I have usually had good luck.

Thanks for your comments and support!

Obvious? Do you think so? Please email me by clicking on the button below and I can then check on whether we're talking about the same person. Alternatively, leave me your email address or post it here?

The more I read the more I'm beginning to think that there are quite a few charlatans out there to choose from!

Keep 'em coming.....

This comment is aimed at Sentjourn but might be applicable to others who find themselves in his position. Hopefully it is not too late for you to leave feedback?

[/b]YOU ACTUALLY HAVE 90 DAYS TO LEAVE FEEDBACK ON EBAY FROM THE TIME THE SALE ENDED

ANY CLAIMS SUBMITTED THROUGH PAYPAL HAVE TO BE LODGED WITHIN 30 DAYS OF THE TIME THE PAYMENT WAS SENT TO THE SELLER AND NOT FROM THE TIME THE SALE ENDED.

ANY CLAIM OTHERWISE SUBMITTED USING EBAY'S STANDARD CLAIM SERVICE (VERY LIMITED) MUST BE WITHIN 45 DAYS OF THE END OF THE TRANSACTION.

I'm partly pleased and equally concerned to learn that some readers have intuitively guessed the correct identity of the seller in the case I outlined above. Does this not mean the seller might already have a slightly tarnished reputation? I would not be surprised.

But if I have only saved one other collector from the potential disappointment derived from dealing with this seller, then I'll be very happy!

Readers might care to also take a look at the OTMVVMMB where this transaction was discussed in greater detail and a whole plethora of complaints from other collectors about the same dealer poured forth!