Phonoland

Well sometimes the simplest solution IS the correct one. Turned out to be a bad solenoid. Grabbed one from another machine, swapped out the metal housing and all is working now. Will post video from home later tonight

OK, now that I am home I can make a proper post.

First and foremost, THANKS to everyone who gave me feedback on this issue. In the end as mentioned above it was a bad toggle switch solenoid. I had a few spares from two R-81's that I am also working on, so I swapped one out and Voila! Success! I did have to swap out the solenoid housing (proper term??? Metal brace that holds the solenoid in place) as the one from the R-81 has a slightly larger piece of metal that was interfering with the stop switch on the magazine.

Anyway, here is a video the machine in action, playing an A-side (seems the default with solenoid un-engaged is B-side, go figure). As you can see, the toggle switch solenoid engages as it should, then releases when the record is cancelled.

https://youtu.be/tegruTqe_go

With that done, I do have a few more questions regarding this machine. I want to ensure that I am using correct terms and truly know what is what.

This is this left (outer row) switch that engages the toggle coil



This is the right (inner row) switch



These are the cam switches (still a bit confused on which switch controls what function, but SURE that the one in the 10 o'clock position turns the magazine when egnaged).



Confused as to why, of all 5 cam switches, this is the only one with two wires attached.

Dane,
Not sure what. if any questions you had on the two open blade relays ??
On the MicroSwitch--'cause the engineers designed it that way--only needed on function of the switch there ( do you understand how a 3 contact, MicroSwitch, functions ?). Ron Rich

Dane, I looked at two of your videos and on the one where the toggle wasn't shifting it was obvious that the solenoid plungers was rusted or otherwise "cruddy" and not allowing it to return to the default "B" position. A vid is worth several posts.

This is this left (outer row) switch that engages the toggle coil

If you mean the two top pic's -those are the search unit sprag relays. They detent the search unit hammers and initiate the pin punch as well as pulse the scan assembly. They do not have any direct connection to the A-B toggle shifter that you replaced.

On the cam switches, I can't be more specific as to which one does what, except that one will have booted spade connectors. This is the turntable switch and has line voltage across it.

The switches are supposed to change mode on the "step" of each cam profile. The cam switches have nothing to do with the write-in process and from seeing your video, it looks like all is OK there.

I know the idea of a B-side as default seems illogical. I was told by a Rowe rep here in NYC that was because in the original design of this mech which was for the JEL and visible, they wanted something different to show the customer, thus the left hand arm.. They also wanted an electrically simple design and didn't have room for another toggle coil with the arm cam assembly at that side so this somewhat goofy operation is what you get. The 1978 redesigned mech eliminated this.

BTW: You were lucky not to have stripped the fiber gear in the gripper motor when the gripper jammed against the shifter pin.

if you need either motor, they can be rebuilt by the OEM which is still in business:
https://www.multiproducts.com/

Rob

Ron Rich wrote:Dane,
Not sure what. if any questions you had on the two open blade relays ??
On the MicroSwitch--'cause the engineers designed it that way--only needed on function of the switch there ( do you understand how a 3 contact, MicroSwitch, functions ?). Ron Rich

I was attempting to confirm that 1) I have identified these switches correctly as listed in the manual (Left switch vs right switch) and 2) I wanted to confirm what each switch does when closed.

One of my primary questions pertains to which switch actually engages the toggle shift coil. Still not clear on this.

As for the function of three contact microswitches, I understand that the three tabs represent open, closed & common aka ground. Typically in my experience one of the two lower (non-common) tabs is in the "always on" phase and the other energizes when the switch is depressed completing the circuit. Do I have this right or am I yet again confused? (common state for me).

Rob-NYC wrote:Dane, I looked at two of your videos and on the one where the toggle wasn't shifting it was obvious that the solenoid plungers was rusted or otherwise "cruddy" and not allowing it to return to the default "B" position. A vid is worth several posts.

Rob

Rob if I understand your statement correctly above, then I must disagree with you. The solenoid on the toggle shifter was indeed returning to it's resting default positioin (Side B in this machine) with the assistance of the spring. The travel of the solenoid plunger was not inhibited in any way. The issue was that the solenoid was faulty and not fully actuating the plunger to allow the A side placement of the record on the turntable. I finally figured out that this was the issue when I attempted to remove the contacts on the solenoid to clean them and they actually came right out of the solenoid body.

Rob-NYC wrote:
On the cam switches, I can't be more specific as to which one does what, except that one will have booted spade connectors. This is the turntable switch and has line voltage across it.

The switches are supposed to change mode on the "step" of each cam profile. The cam switches have nothing to do with the write-in process and from seeing your video, it looks like all is OK there.

Rob

Rob, the manual describes by number what each cam switch does. However it does a rather poor job of actually identifying which switch is #1 and so on. I presume, when looking at the cam assembly, that the switch in 7 O'clock position (first to be engaged as the cam spins clockwise) is switch # 1. Is this correct?

Dane

Rob-NYC wrote:
BTW: You were lucky not to have stripped the fiber gear in the gripper motor when the gripper jammed against the shifter pin.

if you need either motor, they can be rebuilt by the OEM which is still in business:
https://www.multiproducts.com/

Rob

As stated previously, I am new to all of this and am frequently unaware of what I do not know. So I do appreciate warnings regarding what I am doing incorrectly. I still do not understand how to move the transfer arm on this machine using the cam. In the R-91 the white cam is easily manipulated by hand. On this one, the circular cam is not. Any guidance here would be greatly appreciated.

My apologies for the multiple posts and quotes. I wanted to be as clear as possible regarding my questions and responses.

Now today I will be attempting to troubleshoot a similar toggle issue with a R-81 that I am working on. I KNOW that the solenoid is good, so hopefully it won't take me quite as long to figure this one out.

Dane

Hi Dane,
I don't have the service manual to compare the relay contact numbering--that info SHOULD be in the service manual--somewhere--
Yes--you are correct on the MicroSwitches--upper,connector is common ("C"), and the other two are marked "NO" and "NC". Ron Rich

Dane,
The service manual is VERY clear,on the subject of moving the gripper--even down to telling you the wrench size to use--Please RTFM--
Also note: Although it won't say so in the manual--the gripper motor armature, MUST be, oiled, prior to turning the cam by hand ! Ron Rich

Ron Rich wrote:Dane,
The service manual is VERY clear,on the subject of moving the gripper--even down to telling you the wrench size to use--Please RTFM--
Also note: Although it won't say so in the manual--the gripper motor armature, MUST be, oiled, prior to turning the cam by hand ! Ron Rich

Ron, if RTFM means what I think it does, I HAVE, SEVERAL TIMES

Did you miss the parts about 1) Me being new to this and a bit overwhelmed by reading MULTIPLE 100+ page manuals and 2) I'm getting old and don't retain as much as I used to.

With all that said, I am literally looking at the manual now and scanned through the entire thing. Nowhere did I see anything about moving the gripper arm or wrench sizes. Perhaps you can give me a page number so that I don't feel quite so stupid.

Hi Dane,
I did note that-you failed to note, that I do not have a copy of that manual here-- Basically, there is an "Allen Screw" on that cam shaft, and you must turn the cam with an "Allen Wrench"--in a clockwise direction ONLY. Yep- "RTFM"= Read the Friendly Manual"-- just as you suspected ? Ron Rich

Ha! I KNEW IT!

I really do appreciate all the input and especially the patience with my Newbie status. You all have been a ton of help.

Now on to read another manual (R-81)

Dane