Braun MM3 with a Telefunknen TW560

Hi all,

I am new to this site and to forums in general, so if I put this question in the wrong place I apologize and will be happy to move it elsewhere.

Anyway, I took possession of a Braun MM3 with a Telefunken TW560 turntable around Christmas time and found someone to restore the mechanical parts. I got it back a week ago and the record player (which was completely shot) is working along with the radio. However, a few problems that I cannot seem to troubleshoot myself have cropped up in the past few days.

1. I am getting sound from the needle touching the record, but their is no sound coming from the speakers anymore (radio still works fine). I took the cartridge out and there seems to be two contacts underneath that when I touch they buzz the speakers, so it seems to be a cartridge problem? Is the cartridge shot? And if so, where in the heck do I get a replacement? I unscrewed the needle and put it back on and got some sound out of the speakers, but I had to crank it as high as it would go.
2. The tone arm is not dropping in the right spot when I hit "play" and it is not rejecting back to the cradle correctly - it drops just off-center of the cradle. This is the case when I am just playing a single record or when I stack it for the changer. When I stack it for the changer the tone arm comes off the cradle moves just enough towards the record that the dropped LP collides with it.
3. Old vinyl (1960s, 1970s, 1980s) plays great (mostly). Brand new vinyl out of the shrinkwrap (the extra thick vinyl) skates - it skates more towards the edge of the LP and less towards the center.

Am I doing something wrong? Am I loading it wrong? Am I hitting the buttons wrong? Any help would be appreciated. I cannot find a manual for the turntable in English anywhere! Only German and I can't read German!

Whoever you had do the service on the changer obviously didn't do a good and proper job of it.
Properly serviced, they should run like a clock and be reliable for years.

Matt,

I unfortunately am coming to the same conclusion. It wasn't cheap either. Do you think I should get it serviced again elsewhere? And if so, do you know anyone that can do the work in OH or MI?

Chris

No, unfortunately I don't know of anyone out there knowledgeable of German changer servicing.
I'm currently restoring a unit at the shop with a Telefunken changer, and they all need proper TLC - corrosion, rust, delicate linkage issues, and seized bearings.
A lot of so-called techs just don't know the finer points of restoration, or want to be bothered with proper service - they only want the money.
Sad state of affairs these days.

"Wags" your cartridge is certainly shot. Those old European sets used a crystal or ceramic cart and there are two basic problems in finding a replacement.

First is mounting the replacement. Those old arms usually used some sort of proprietary mounting scheme. If you are lucky there might be a standard ½ mounting screws posts. If not you'll have to figure something out.

Second is the level balance between the radio and phono. I looked at the schematic and this set uses the then-typical EABC-80 tube as a demodulator-first AF amplifier. European sets used much higher level demodulation level and this means that a typical radio station produced around 2 volts rms to the volume control (modern American station are even louder). I know of no modern ceramic cart that gets anywhere near that level, and frankly, even if you find one it will sound bad and wear out your records. So in replacing the cart you will have to accept a much lower average level radio vs. phono.

A service manual is free here: http://www.vinylengine.com/library/telefunken.shtml -Although the text appears to be in German. The closest model looks to be:

http://www.vinylengine.com/library/tele ... -561.shtml

The ideal solution here would be to replace the whole turntable with something that has a better tonearm and can accept a better cart. This is not a simple matter and does involve some careful cutting of the mounting board. In looking at pics of your unit I see that space is really tight so that may be a problem.

Finally, the radio-amplifer section MUST have it's wax-paper capacitors replaced. If the originals are still in there they are surely leaking DC into areas where it shouldn't be. This will wear out tubes, cause distortion and potentially ruin the power supply.

Sorry to be so negative about all this, but there is a lot to do when reconditioning these old sets so they can be used safely and enjoyably.

The work itself is not too demanding but is does require at least a basic set of electronic skills - or the money to hire someone to do a thorough job.

Rob/NYC

Rob-NYC wrote:The work itself is not too demanding but is does require at least a basic set of electronic skills
Rob/NYC

Whoa woah woah!
Hold on there!

Have you ever worked on a german chassis, particulary in a console unit?
Are you familier with the rediculous way some of these chassis are secured in these consoles?
The involved pre-hassles of removing panels and/or speakers just to access the bolts?
Also the multi-layer component layout that makes cap or resistor replacement extremely difficult?

I've done countless of these german sets of all types, and TRUST ME, even though I'm an experienced tech, I use plenty of foul words when having to service these sets.
That's one reason why they cost more to restore than an American set.

Hi Robb,

Thanks for the fast, but disappointing, reply! I am realizing more and more that the place I took it to didn't know much about it and threw a bunch of bandaids on to get it to the point of almost working. Anyway, I like the idea of replacing the turntable with something more serviceable and common - the radio seems to be working great. I would like to keep the piece as close to original as possible so I think maybe I would like to stick with a Telefunken TT. Can you suggest a more modern, more serviceable Telefunken TT that would go well with this radio model?

And do you know of anyone in OH with a good reputation that could install it/service the radio?

Chris

Chris, the first order of business is to determine if the T-T you have is repairable -at reasonable cost. If not, or you want something better the next consideration is what will fit in that cabinet.

One possible suggestion is a Dual 1010:
http://s1192.photobucket.com/user/Rob-N ... sort=3&o=1
http://s1192.photobucket.com/user/Rob-N ... sort=3&o=0

It measures 11¾ deep X 13" wide. These use standard mounting studs for the cart so any decent one will fit. They are also German. As I mentioned, fitting and connecting a new table is not the simplest task. But it will give you a much better set to use. Like any old equipment it will need to be gone over and -carefully- lubed and cleaned.

As for finding a decent technician, you will need to troll the hobby boards and ask around. You are in a major city so someone should be nearby.

What I suggest is to start with a Google search for "german radio collection" check with those who have this hobby (there is a lot of interest) and see if they can lead to someone local. In cases like this a hobbyist will likely know more and probably be more reasonable than a commercial technician.

Rob/NYC

MattTech wrote:

Rob-NYC wrote:The work itself is not too demanding but is does require at least a basic set of electronic skills
Rob/NYC

Whoa woah woah!
Hold on there!

Matt: Whoa-Whoa yourself I grew up and still live in the area of Manhattan called Yorkville AKA: GermanTown

Some shots: http://lostnewyorkcity.blogspot.com/201 ... ville.html And a cringe inducing one: http://modelbfwproject.files.wordpress. ... erican.jpg Yep, this area was very German.

BAck in the 1960s-70's there were no major chain stores here and ALL of the camera-electronics stores were German or Hungarian owned. The European electronics had great performance for the cost and a very favorable exchange rate meant that nearly everybody (even the Jews) had at least one product made by: Grundig. Braun.Telefunken.Loew-Opta. Blaupunkt. Uher. Saba.

My first really good portable was a Grundig Satellit Transistor 6001 http://www.radiomuseum.org/r/grundig_satellit_6001.html in late 1969. My first good portable tape machine was a Uher report 4000 (1972) And we had a Tandberg stereo tape deck by 1965.

It wasn't until around 1980 that my level of patience began to equal my knowledge and I started to be willing to really restore and collect European electronics. That was good timing since a lot of the "old timers" (Germans) were moving away or croaking and this stuff was filling the thrift shops and being found on the street.

One find was a Grundig TK 830: http://www.radiomuseum.org/r/grundig_tk830.html Take a look at the under chassis; the large Pabst Synchronous motor drives the capstan directly. the entire set of functions is controlled by relays and buttons. IT took a week to rebuild this unit and all I had was a tube manual to figure out the circuits -but it was actually fun. It's hard to believe that something like this was actually made for the consumer market.

As for Chris' set, the 1950's German tube sets were not that daunting to restore. The circuits do have a few tricks and can be a bit tight but once you understand the overall European designs used in these sets any technician or skilled hobbyist can renew them.

Rob

Rob, you're missing my point entirely.
I've serviced many german console radio/phonos here for customers, and still do.
A good many of them are not, I repeat NOT service-friendly designs.
Having to tear apart whole cabinet panels just to gain access to chassis mounting bolts, is NOT an easy job.
Sure, the cabinets were snazzy, but god only knows who designed them.
Having to maneuver delicate pushbutton assemblies out of the way to gain access to components buried below them in chassis - again, is NOT a job for a novice.
The record changers are another bite in the azz, sometimes putzed with, and sometimes brittle plastic parts to deal with.
Not fun, and please don't make it sound easy, because it isn't.

Matt, take it easy here, no one is suggesting that "mere mortals" should do this work. But it has to be done or the set will eventually destroy parts of itself.

A case in-point for those interested: In summer 1991 I got an early 60's Saba large table radio w/motorized tuning at a flea market in NJ (paid $1). It was overall in good condition but had obviously been heavily used. After thorough cleaning up I replaced all coupling and bypass caps. When powered and after alignment the RF performance was excellent but the audio was thin and measured only a little over 1 watt from a good 6BQ5.

The output transformer had been ruined by a a leaky capacitor from the plate of the 'BQ5 to ground. Essentially the B+ was shorted via the output tran and the heavy current had noticeably deformed the plastic bobbin. Replacement was the only solution. Unfortunately, that tran had a separate secondary for feedback to the tone shaping network. Good luck finding one of those. So I had to modify the feedback circuit to use a regular 6V6/6BQ5 tran. No big deal -just two resistors, in the end it sounded good. But if the caps had been replaced at an earlier point those sorts of "heroics" wouldn't have been necessary.

My point to those reading this is simple; if you have an old tube set of any sort that has not, at the very least, been given new capacitors you are essentially wasting it.

With modern parts this is a one-time job. Do it yourself, or find someone, but get it done.

Rob/NYC

A Telefunken TW-560 is just a V-M 920 changer in German clothing, with a different set of controls knobs, a different plinth, and often a different motor (for 220 V 50Hz) and a few extra parts to make it repeat a record. But it has the same slide change cycle mechanism found in all V-M changers of that era.

The idiot probably adjusted the setdown to land on a 12" record already on the turntable, not realizing that this changer selects 10" operation if the 12" record does not actually drop down the spindle during that change cycle. This makes the rest post setdown and the setdown for all of the other sizes wrong too.

Two simple fixes most people forget:

- Are the transit locks released so the changer is floating? If not, this can cause all kinds of hard to locate grief.

- Is a wandering wire fouling the arm control parts under the plinth?