Phonoland

This is interesting.. (Well, to me, anyways..)

I have about 250 45's ''in my collection'', of which 100 will be going into my juke. Until I'm ready to load the juke up though, I've been had about 20 out, putting them in to listen to or test the mech, etc.

One thing I noticed is the amount of 'bad' records.. In this 20 alone -
-- I have had two that weren't 'cut' (?) straight. The record wasn't completely center when it was trimmed/drilled, as the grooves rock back and forth as the record spins. (i.e. As if you tried to manually center a record on the spindle.) The odd thing is that the edge of the record is perfectly straight when it spins. One is barely noticeable, but another I had to toss, since it was rather bad and noticeably affected the music.
-- One record actually had static pressed into the record. This is strange, but Styx 'Too Much Time On My Hands' - at the end, as the song gets really quiet, static becomes noticeable, and by the end, it's all you can hear. I've done a close inspection of the record; it's not dirty, it's actually a rather new looking record. (Old pressing, rarely played.) I've cleaned it, sounds the same. Bad master?

Just surprises me at the percentage there.. 3 out of 20, that's over a 10% 'failure' rate. (2/20 if you don't count the one I kept.)

None of my records are 'newer' - probably none are newer than being pressed in the late 80's. Is this failure rate normal, or did I just luck out and pick all the bad ones?

Hi, foxtrotray, You cannot beat a little crackle when playing a record especially at the beginning, sadly there is thousands of records out there which are only good for Frisbees'. even if they do look in good condition. You cannot judge a record by it's looks like a woman. I have had some really ugly looking records that to look at you would throw in the bin, but when put in the juke to play, sounded brilliant. so unfortunately it's all down to trial and error. Harry.

Harry,
You can judge a woman by "looks"--?? Well, I guess so, as my Mom use to get a "mean look" when she was mad at me--come to think of it, my wife gets that same look-- Ron Rich

Hi, Ron, Ah yes but that's change in tempermerant like a hiccup in the sound performance of a jukebox. but some really nice looking woman spoil things when they open their mouths and sound like pinky and perky. My late brothers favourite song was House of the Rising Sun by the Animals, I have had a few copies of this over the years, but have kept the one that looks like it has been cleaned with a pan scrubber. did not believe it at first myself but it sounds the best out all the one's I've had. Harry

Hi Harry,
Yes-but it's what "sets them off", that bugs me--usually it is something that I am totally un-aware of, and would NEVER think of, in the same manner that they did ! Vive la difference !! Ron Rich

Most of the 45s I've owned have spun slightly off center. Many 78s had this problem too, but for whatever reason, it was less noticeable, in terms of sound quality.


As for:
djricksha wrote: You cannot judge a record by it's looks like a woman.

You've overlooked one important thing:

Hah!

Actually the center hole is molded at the same time as the grooves. If the hole is off center, then the hole was off center when they made the stamper. So all of the few hundred records that stamper made were off center by the same amount.

Some of those noises are made by a bad stylus playing the record, or dust on the record when it was played. And some noises are caused by damage to the stamper that made the record. I have even heard rumble that was in the turntable used to cut the lacquer master - pressed into every copy of that record that was ever made (it had me chasing where the rumble in my turntable was coming from, until I realized that no other record produced any rumble).

Record-changer wrote:Actually the center hole is molded at the same time as the grooves. If the hole is off center, then the hole was off center when they made the stamper. So all of the few hundred records that stamper made were off center by the same amount.

I have one record where, when placed on the turntable, the outer edge of the record is *perfect* - no lateral movement whatsoever. However, the grooves DO have lateral movement. Very strange - the onyl one I've ever seen like that.

Record-changer wrote:Some of those noises are made by a bad stylus playing the record, or dust on the record when it was played. And some noises are caused by damage to the stamper that made the record. I have even heard rumble that was in the turntable used to cut the lacquer master - pressed into every copy of that record that was ever made (it had me chasing where the rumble in my turntable was coming from, until I realized that no other record produced any rumble).

The one I was referencing was in the record like that. Wasn't needle or turntable, and occurred even after record was cleaned. (I on;y had one of them, so couldn't tell if this one just got pressed badly, or if it was in the whole run.)

Since originally posting this thread, I ran into another one. Old Rolling Stones record, 'Start Me Up' - literally IN the pressing there's a skip - hard to describe - the needle never skips, but the master recording had one skip backwards. Listening to the record - in the juke or on my turntable, the audio 'skips' back one groove in the middle of the song. It only happens *once*. Kinda amusing since it sent me on a ghost-hunt to find out why it on;y happens the one perfectly, and then there's no trace of it after.

--Mike

foxtrotxray wrote:I have one record where, when placed on the turntable, the outer edge of the record is *perfect* - no lateral movement whatsoever. However, the grooves DO have lateral movement. Very strange - the onyl one I've ever seen like that.

The outside edge is trimmed after the record is pressed. The trimming is centered on the center hole, not the grooves.

foxtrotxray wrote:The one I was referencing was in the record like that. Wasn't needle or turntable, and occurred even after record was cleaned. (I on;y had one of them, so couldn't tell if this one just got pressed badly, or if it was in the whole run.)

If the entire record is noisy, it might have been pressed on recycled vinyl (I have several records on the Pickwick, Mala, and Sphere Sound labels with noise in the vinyl itself - putting the stylus on the blank area at the center also made noise. Also, I have seen noise enter a vinyl record because the record was heated. I have one record my mother left on top of the record player with half of it in the sun. It didn't warp, but it makes a once-around hiss.

foxtrotxray wrote:Since originally posting this thread, I ran into another one. Old Rolling Stones record, 'Start Me Up' - literally IN the pressing there's a skip - hard to describe - the needle never skips, but the master recording had one skip backwards. Listening to the record - in the juke or on my turntable, the audio 'skips' back one groove in the middle of the song. It only happens *once*.

It's probably a bootleg pressing with the stamper recorded from playing a record instead of from a master tape (which can't skip). The record skipped while the stamper was being made. I can't think that this could happen any other way. I have that 45 and my copy does not skip.

What label is it on? The Rolling Stones should be on London Records in the US.

I just remembered one other thing: There is a place on my 45 of that song where the musicians were thinking one bar in the score apart from each other, and the guitar player played the 3-note chorus intro one bar early and then repeated it. This is not a skip, but a musical mistake they left in the take (it sounds good). Is that what you are hearing? It is a complete bar, so it doesn't sound abrupt like a skip. It is also not synchronized to record rotation.

Record-changer wrote:If the entire record is noisy, it might have been pressed on recycled vinyl (I have several records on the Pickwick, Mala, and Sphere Sound labels with noise in the vinyl itself - putting the stylus on the blank area at the center also made noise. Also, I have seen noise enter a vinyl record because the record was heated. I have one record my mother left on top of the record player with half of it in the sun. It didn't warp, but it makes a once-around hiss.

Nope - may be recycled, but 90% of the record is fine - but about 30 seconds from the end, the volume of the song drops, and hiss takes over, slowly getting louder until the end, where all you hear is a soft white noise.

Record-changer wrote:It's probably a bootleg pressing with the stamper recorded from playing a record instead of from a master tape (which can't skip). The record skipped while the stamper was being made. I can't think that this could happen any other way. I have that 45 and my copy does not skip.

What label is it on? The Rolling Stones should be on London Records in the US.

I just remembered one other thing: There is a place on my 45 of that song where the musicians were thinking one bar in the score apart from each other, and the guitar player played the 3-note chorus intro one bar early and then repeated it. This is not a skip, but a musical mistake they left in the take (it sounds good). Is that what you are hearing? It is a complete bar, so it doesn't sound abrupt like a skip. It is also not synchronized to record rotation.

I'll have to check, but it will take me a while. (The juke is out of service as the amp gets rebuilt, so I can't get the record out of the mech to play it. ) It's a definite skip, not any cue error on by the musicians. Interestingly, it's a 'clean' skip - during playing, it'll do the skip - no pop of a groove jump, the music just resets back one rotation - the next time it comes around, there's nothing - no clue that there was ever a skip.[/quote]

DoghouseRiley wrote:You have to accept that the way 45rpm records were churned out, there's going to be quite a few which aren't perfect.
On my R/O 443 I've a few "small hole" records that have slightly off-centre holes.
On my 468 I've a few dinked large hole records that weren't quite centre. I've managed to centre them up by putting little strips of insulation tapes around one side of the whole and filing away the opposite side slightly, to "move" the centre and it is working.
There's also one or two small-hole records that start a second or so after the beginning of a track. No amount of adjustment of the tone arm will make the pick up set down at the closest edge of the track-in groves to the recording, without making a different record having the stylus miss the track in area. So it's a bit of a compromise, or you choose a different record.

Oh yeah - I'm not really complaining, just observing. The one that's "not cut right" is interesting, since the *grooves* are perfectly straight and unwavering, but the center hole and actual vinyl isn't straight.

Thanks guys!

Hey Guyz--
PLEASE quit "quoting" long quotes, over, and over--makes it too confusing to follow--at least for the feeble minded like me !!
Ron Rich

Rich -
When replying to multiple points in the same post, quoting like that is extremely useful, otherwise it's very difficult to follow the other person's thoughts.

Thanks-
Mike

Mike,
I agree--but LONG quotes, re-quoted over, and over, with "tons of facts" just confuse my simple brain, and frankly, take up too much space--short--to the point quotes, are great--Ron Rich