Phonoland

Hi Rob,
That's the problem--I'll gladly sell you the other one---
As I attempt to clearly state, all the time--the "Seeburg Mechanism Guide" deals ONLY with the Mechanism--not any other function of the phono. The "MicroLog Trouble Shooting Guide", deals only with a "MicroLog" type phonograph's, trouble shooting--
You are correct--the rollers won't have any thing to do with the sound when playing. What might is the phono suspension--see the I and O manual for adjustments, of this system. Ron Rich

Rob, what you are talking about is something totally different than a wobbling-limping mech. Those symptom occur in scanning mode.

Your problem is commonly referred to as "wow" or "flutter" the likely causes are;

1) Dried out or broken rubber coupling between the motor and worm gear shaft.

2) Old, gummy oil (or no oil) in the long vertical bearing above the worm gear. Remove the four screws holding it --be careful not to lose the ball bearing inside the bearing sleeve. Apply oil to both the bearing and shaft.

3) Inadequate clamping of a record due to some {EDIT--"bleep"} over-stretching the clamp arm spring. With a record playing it should be reasonably firmly held and not flopping.

4) Off center mech that has records dragging on the record separators. Play a flat record and see how centered it is. Note: no record is perfectly flat so turn the record over, play it again and see if still centered. You'll hear some scraping if all is quiet. I doubt this is your problem.

5) A severely mis-adjusted clutch -could- theoretically cause this problem if the clutch member does not fully clear the upper or lower drive pins. I've never seen this happen, but on machines that have been monkeyed with -who knows.

6) Failure of the contacts on the vertical stack that add capacitance during scan-changing to open in play mode. this will cause phase slipping. However, the problem is usually the reverse where wear and pitting prevents them from closing when they are needed.

1 & 2 are the most likely culprits.

Rob

All amazing stuff from both of you, thanks. Sorry about the bad terminology (wow or flutter from now on)...I'll comb over some of this tonight and report back.

Thanks!

Rob NYC,
I like # 3 best--I seen dat too many times !--also have seen # 5, a few times--and have a couple more-
One or more of the thrust bearings--worn out-or too tight, or both !
Motor coupler installed in-correctly--and or loose screw on it touching frame.
Turntable "ball bearings" "frozen" to shaft.
Ron Rich

Well, since we are adding second thoughts, it is possible that the rubber bushings on the turntable have dried and disintegrated. I've yet to have this on any of my machines, but I does happen.

On three instances I've had flutter on newly washed and lubed mechs. In two cases the top bearing was the obvious culprit (squealing) after thorough lubing it was OK. I find that lubricating several times and letting the mech sit and spin for a time smooths out speed irregularities if there are no obvious fault conditions.

Rob/NYC

Didn't get to this last night (it was too beautiful out on my deck)...the history of this machine is that it was refurbished by a reputable local operator/shop here 6-10 years ago (not sure how long) but then it basically sat in a smoke filled basement being abused since then. Figured that might point assumptions about what might be bad or not in a correct direction.

PS: After my first oiling, this did get a bit better, but it still exists. Sounds like maybe Rob is suggesting a second go-round? (although I technically haven't been able to oil anything behind the records yet...still trying to figure out how to get there )

Rob, it should be possible to reach the rear of the clutch, the lift arm gears and safety plunger with the mech parked at the extreme left. However, on this model there is a gray box mounted there and Ron will have to describe how to get that out of the way.

Rob-NYC

Rob's---
Turn power OFF, un-plug and pull it out--3 seconds ?
Ron Rich

Well, failing so far, still got the flutter. Moving the mech to the 100 position was key, obvioiusly. I did that and removed the grey box in order to hit all the front lubrication points.

I tried to pull the vertical shaft from above the worm and failed..there's a big piece of cast metal I cant see how to remove in front of it and I didn't want to mess it up, so after taking the metal top off, I got scared and put it back together

So my followup questions:

Where is the rubber I'm supposed to be checking? Can't see it anywhere.

Second, the flutter seems to get worse after firing it up for a while. The first song has much less flutter, then the flutter seems to get worse and worse as time goes along (if i turn it off for the night, the next day the first song seems better again). I share that in case there's something that could be getting worse due to heating up.

Thanks guys...I really dont want to give up and hire someone to fix this, but I feel I may be nearing that point. Grrrr....

Rob, there are three areas where rubber can cause this problem;

One is the coupling between the motor and the worm gear. An excessively hardened or broken coupling will cause problems.

Another -may- exist here, they is [excuse the Ebonics here] the rubber plug-cushion under the motor. On older mechs this prevented the motor from sagging a touching the casting. At some point Seeburg sought save probably a 1/100th of a cent and eliminated that plug. Eventually the now unsupported weight of the motor ruins the round mounts and it sags. When this happens the motor can shift slightly and cause speed irregularities along with rumble.

Finally, take a look at the rubber bushings behind the turntable (AKA: flywheel) also try rock the T-T a bit and see how it feels. It should only be able to turn a slight amount and not be floppy or feel like it is hitting metal. Point is that the T-T needs to be reasonably firmly coupled to the shaft.

Select a slot with no record and listen closely for any odd sounds that have a rhythm similar to the flutter.

There is an outside chance that the motor capacitor has lost value. One indication would be if it is relatively easy to stop the T-T with your hand when a record is playing.

You will need to oil that vertical bearing. Since I can not see what is in the way I hope Ron will talk you through this. On the mechs I have that bearing is in the clear.

Rob/NYC

Rob's
I do not advise one ever attempts to stop the turntable ! You run the risk of "chewing up" the fiber gear ( which MAY be the problem here ?). I have never seen a "weak motor cap" cause this either--Nor can I distinguish what the "large vertical shaft from above the worm gear" is??
BTW--the motor support plug was added back in prior to this model phono-- It was removed as "Bodine" informed Seeburg that they had "improved" the motor support rubber,and it was no longer necessary (least that's whut I were tolt ! ). Ron Rich

"large vertical shaft from above the worm gear

Fine, make that "large vertical bearing" -and it will need to be oiled.

As for chewing up the fiber gear, that point is well taken. However, i've used the flywheel to help move the mech for decades (heavens!) and have not damaged one yet. On one hideaway I bought that gear was damaged by what looked like a ceiling collapse of plaster and other debris on an unprotected mach. After thorough washing-lubing there was flutter at one point in the rotation. I oiled it liberally and let it run. A half hour later the worm gear had re-established useable teeth in the fiber. 21 Years later it is still in use. My point here is, if the gear were slightly damaged in Rob's case, I believe running would have worked it out by now.

A weak run cap will certainly cause a torque problem. Try disconnecting that section and note how easy it is to stop the motor. Without the run section and even with the boost section added during handling, the mech will stall at reverse.

Rob

Rob,
I'm still confused as to which "vertical shaft" you are talking about ? If it's the one directly on top of the motor, it is lubricated by the hollowed out, "Allen screw" on the upper shaft, which should have an oil wick installed.
As for not ruining the fiber gear--Yes, I have turned many a turntable, by hand, without having any problem--but I have also seen at least 25 of them that were ruined "somehow" ?? I do not enjoy changing them !!
Yes, a weak motor run cap, would certainly cause a torque problem, however, I have never seen a weak one--lotza "open" ones ! (or maybe since the problem was that the motor would not run, I ASSUMED the cap was open, not just weak, and just replaced it ?)
Ron Rich

Ron, yes I'm talking about the one above the motor. I know that under normal conditions IF the mech had been properly cared-for a few drops into that hole would suffice. Through either neglect or improper oil that shaft can become glazed and as in any bearing, this will inhibit the proper dispersal of oil over the surfaces. When this happens (I've had it four times now) the only solution is to remove that bearing, flush it, apply oil directly to the surfaces...and hope for the best.

The clue here is that the flutter will be accompanied by noticeable squeal in that bearing. However given how the mech is somewhat buried and if music is playing that noise might go unnoticed.

As is often the case, if either if us had the machine in front of us that problem could be diagnosed in about a minute.

---A question for Rob; Does this flutter occur in both A&B side play? Also, with the mech stopped gently rock the T-T while feeling the motor coupling for any up-down action. Only the minutest play is allowable. It is adjusted via the large Allen nut atop the bearing. Do not make it too tight though.

Rob

I cant tell you how much I appreciate you both for walking me thru this (and letting me be the fly on the wall to your troubleshooting) but yesterday was the most maddening day, I'm so frustrated.

I had taken this machine from not doing much of anything very well when I bought it, to "all working except the flutter". I was feeling really good.

Then, yesterday I went to work on it further and suddenly the mech won't select ANY records. 2-3 passes after making a selection and nothing. SO FRUSTRATING. I feel like I'm back to square 1.

The most recent things I did were:

1. Remove the grey box to get at the mech so I could oil the 'back' points on the mech. After some testing, I remounted it.

2. Remove the contact section that touches the top contact block from the top of the clutch on the 'back' of the mech in order to clean those contacts and the rivets on the contact block. (honestly not sure what this block does...part of the tormat selection process I'd guess)

I triplle checked that those contacts are lined up when I put it back , but I fear in the process something happened the grey box, since that seems logical. I tried Ron's "D-battery" test with the tormat but I couldn't get it to detent at all..not sure I did that right or not.

If you're done helping me thru this I totally understand...I'd be sick of me by now.