Pathephone Modele E - 1906-1910 (?)

Larry

I could kiss your feet! Fantastic, thanks so much, you might just have saved me junking some records at the very last second!

Yes, I too have had this issue - like today! I bought recently about 30 Pathe discs and I'm slowly going through them all. The bigger diameter discs play fine but I've acquired a number of 8 inch (?) discs which have exactly this problem. they track on one side only, the other simply sends the soundbox sliding toward the centre spindle (sometimes at great speed). But why? I don't know. I never encountered this before.

I thought it was simply a tracking error on the machine and played them on a different machine but whilst there is a little improvement on SOME records, most do exactly the same with a different s/box, tone-arm etc.

I'm totally baffled.

I was about to sling these non players but your post has given me reason to think twice. They can't all be ruined can they? What are we missing here Sherlock? There's something we need to do to get them to play.

Let's put our collective heads together!

You can put your socks back on now!

Steve

Steve,

How humbling.. Just must have hit the same topic at the same time I guess?

As to what the issues that might cause that I am not sure either. I had sort of wondered if in storage the records for some reason flattened a bit and sort of made the grooves less deep letting the stylus skid across. But would they do that on one side only? I also had some that neither side would play. Its a bit encouraging to know it isn't strictly the brunswick doing it. I think we had better put this question on the other major group where more people have experience with this and see what kind of "guesses" we get.

I wouldn't think it is a worn needle issue making it too out of shape to ride the groove soundly if one side played fine? It truly is a mystery? I am am pretty sure we will get some correct and not so correct answers, usually from experts to boot! I wish now I had kept more of the pathe's I ran across out here at a sale once. Those are very rare here in southern illinois. I was really surprised to see that oak upright out here an not sell to this day. Don't know that it has any records though. The first set I purchased were all in very fine condition but at the time I wasn't into them much, but like I said earlier, if it has the possibility of good sound I like to try it out.

larry

I know that the reason Edison Diamond Discs are so thick was to eliminate the problem of warpage, which would cause tracking problems for a vertically cut disc. So, for starters, make sure the records are perfectly flat, and the phonograph, itself, as level as possible. Along this line, the tone arm must move as freely as possible--sideways as well as up and down.

I remember hearing from a local collector/record dealer, several years ago, that he hated Pathe' vertical cut records because the quality of the pressings varied. Apparently, there were quality control issues or other problems that resulted in a slightly shallow groove, so that while one side would track correctly, the other side would not. He also mentioned that the slightest wear-spot or a slight chip in the groove would cause skating.

I've read that, for electrical playback of Pathe' vertical cut discs, the way to counteract the skating is to increase the weight of the tone arm or reproducer --

For instance, see -- http://78rpmrecord.com/pathvert.htm


As for playing Pathe' discs on a Brunswick phonograph, I know that the Ultona tone arm has a sliding weight that must be moved to a certain position to provide enough tracking weight.

SEE: http://nipperhead.com/old/brult.htm
(Click on the thumbnail images to make them full size for viewing/printing.)

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BTW, if you find out anything, please post back here. It would be great to use for future reference.

Joe_DS

Thanks for posting those links, Joe_DS, very interesting reading, if a bit too technical for me!

Something about increasing the weight of the tracking arm by using a higher mass material but not increasing the "playing" weight, just totally lost me. How do you do one without the other, and if you can, wouldn't one effect cancel the other out? Maybe I'm in the wrong hobby after all.

Something about increasing the weight of the tracking arm by using a higher mass material but not increasing the "playing" weight, just totally lost me.

Yes, I was confused by that too. I wonder if the author's still among the quick? Perhaps he could explain it.

There's not a heck of a lot online regarding Pathe' records, except, of course, those sold in the US market. (The list appears on this page -- http://settlet.fateback.com/discography.html )

There are also a few references/photos on various (English language) phono related websites, along with the Wikipedia article -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Path%C3%A9_Records -- but there's not much to go on there.


The only comprehensive reference book I've ever heard of, specifically devoted to Pathe, also concentrates on the machines & records sold in the US market -- Pathé Records and Phonographs in America, 1914 - 1922 by George A. Copeland and Ronald Dethlefson (http://edisonrecords.com/Books/index.html and http://www.mulhollandpress.com/Pathe.htm)



Maybe they could be talked into writing one about the European market?

Something about increasing the weight of the tracking arm by using a higher mass material but not increasing the "playing" weight, just totally lost me.

I think I figured it out. What he means is that you would use a heavier tone arm--so there would be more mass. But, to keep the needle from "smushing" into the record groove, you'd have to use a counter-weight to reduce the (downward) pressure of the of the cartridge & stylus. Nonetheless, since the overall mass (weight) of the tone arm would be greater, it would take more force to move it sideways across the record's surface, so it would be less prone to "skating."

I also noticed that he suggests increasing the length of the tone arm.

Thanks for that!

I think I understand you but I still have problems figuring out how the additional mass reduces the skating tendency when a counterbalance (weight) is required to reduce the downward pressure on the needle point. If the weight is reduced at the needle end of a long tone-arm, surely the additonal mass has been "compensated for" and the arm could still skate. To my (out of tune) mind, the weight would need to be at the needle point as this is the driving point of the arm which will "skate" and take the rest with it? So, yes, I understand your concise description but I'm still somewhat puzzled how it works physically.

I note the issue of increasing the length of the arm too. Isn't it interesting that Carsten on OTVMMB actually recommended the complete opposite approach, thus REDUCING the length of the arm to give an "underhang"! Oh well, one of these people must be right. But who?

Interesting topic.

Steve

mass has been "compensated for" and the arm could still skate.

Only the pressure on the record has been compensated for, as a result of using the counter-weight. The arm, itself, would still weigh more (if you were to remove it an put it on a scale), as a result of the increased mass. This means that sideways movement would require more inertia if a heavier arm is used. (Hope this makes sense.)

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It seems to me, for electrical playback, the easiest way to counter the skating problem would be to slow the turntable down a bit, digitally record the record, and then increase the playback speed of the recording, itself.

A thought just struck me. I'm not sure if you've done this, but, for center-start records, try setting the stylus down into the groove while the turntable is stopped. Then release the brake, and start the turntable-a slight push start may be required--and see if it stays in the groove.

BTW -- I thought I'd call your attention to this, in case you haven't seen it:

http://78rpmrecord.com/centerst.htm

There are a few tid-bits about Pathe, and a reference to a book that profiles the company's recording activities, that I've never heard of before.

One thing the author notes is that the actual recording speeds of the discs can vary, which implies that while they may "officially" have a posted playback speed of 80 rpm or more, they may actually have been recorded at a different speed. This, too, may have an impact on the tonearm's tendency to skate. I'm not sure if Pathe turntables are equipped with a speed adjustment knob, but if so, you might try experimenting with this, slowing it down slightly, to see if this makes for an improvement.

I accept what you say as the "truth" here regarding the inertia etc but I'm personally still struggling with the concept! It sort of makes sense to me until I really start thinking too much about it.

The Pathe machines have a variable speed control from about 78 up to 110rpm. Speed is a big problem with Pathes. I wish someone would publish a list of Pathe recordings given the correct speed for each one. With all the minutiae in existing regarding lateral records, it is disappointing that something as fundamental as the playing speed is not far better documented anywhere for these great discs? It's possible to turn a bass into a tenor inadvertently by assessing the wrong speed based on the lack of audible clues in the (sometimes) spartan arrangements / instrumentation!

I'm waiting for a replacement rubber connector for a tone-arm to my Pathe Elf which is a very small machine with short arm. I will see what (if any) difference the small records exhibit on this machine when I get it all back together. In my experience, it is the SMALL records which are the problem, not the larger diameters. I note on the "other board" there is mention of the larger 14" discs being the issue?

Steve

Is there in fact a recording on the other side? I have one non-Pathe 78 with a recording on one side, but the other side has a fake surface that looks like record grooves, but doesn't play. It is in fact a surface intended to increase traction on the turntable.

Cool machine. I think they look better than U.S. made machines. I think that Pathe' is very rare here in the U.S. unless you are talking Pathe New York.... Any ways they sound way better than Edison Diamond Disc. Edison diamond disc does not even have the umph that Victor has. The bass is dull and drags. Edison's best machines were cylinder.

Victor has the best sound of any U.S. disc machine, with the exception of the later Viva-Tonal which are right on par with electric machines.