Record Speed

Hi all its me again, Bob (ultraliter) with the same problem with my record playing fine on the CW side and distorted, slow on the CCW side. I am on my third cartridge and they all seem to work the same. I have done everything that everyone has suggested and there has been no change. I'm thinking that when the motor reverses there may be something wrong in the windings or some thing. Any other suggestions? I sure would like to get this working so I can finish restoring it.
Thanks
Bob

Please see PM I sent you. Ron Rich

Fixed my location.
Bob

Bob,
Thanks--
But I still don't know what phonograph you're talking about, or the "history" of what you've "done" ?
Ron Rich

Hi Ron

I have sent several questions to this Forum about my Seeburg M100C playing good on one side of the record and not the other. I have tried everything that was suggested by you and others without any change. I have tried two different new cartridges, new needles and nothing has changed. The only thing I can think of now is that there is something wrong in the motor when it reverses. Bad windings, etc. Also the motor is soaked with oil from some previous owner.
I really don't know I'm just trying to figure this whole thing out. Any help would be appreciated. We are planning on restoring this Jukebox but I don't want to take it apart until it plays right.

Thanks
Bob

Hi Bob,
The cartridge, has nothing to do with speed !
You say you "did everything"--well, that being the case, you've fixed it--
List what you have done, and maybe someone will see something you missed ?
Also, which brand motor is installed in your phono ?
Ron Rich

Bob, some basic questions:

Does the motor have the same torque in both directions? In play position place your thumb on the flywheel (turntable) and attempt to slow it down. Try this in both directions.

Does the mech reverse readily when scanning -and- when you flip the reversing switch paddle while in play mode? With the mechanism playing on the 'slow" side use a plastic stick to temporarily close the contacts on the stack that add additional capacitance as if it were in scan/changing mode.

Given the age of this machine it probably does not have an adjustable thrust bearing, but check to see if there is excessive end-to-end play of the turntable shaft.

On the vertical bearing over the motor there should be complete freedom to turn but little up and down play. Check that the ball bearing is in there. Do you hear/notice any vibration or squeal in that bearing?

Rob/NYC

I am not sure it is the speed that is changing or if there is something wrong with the playing on the CCW side of the record. It sounds distorted, or slow. Do the same with all records.
My motor is marked: Emerson - K32 B0 - 129
I have checked the pick up wires for shorts and being too tight when tone arm shifts side.
I have adjusted the balance of the tone arm.
I have adjusted the needle pressure with a needle pressure gauge.
I have tried 3 different cartridges.
I have cleaned and burnished all contacts.

With the mechanism playing on the 'slow" side use a plastic stick to temporarily close the contacts on the stack that add additional capacitance as if it were in scan/changing mode.
Which contacts are these?

Torque seems the same in both directions.

Does the mech reverse readily when scanning -and- when you flip the reversing switch paddle while in play mode?
Mech seems to reverse readily when scanning. When I flip the reversing switch paddle in the play mode the motor slowly slows down and then reverses and slowly picks up speed again.

There is no excessive end-to-end play of the turntable shaft.

There is no excessive end play, noise on the vertical shaft. Bearing is there.
There is a ticking noise when turning CCW, that's the bad side.

Again Thank You for any help you may have.
Bob

With the mechanism playing on the 'slow" side use a plastic stick to temporarily close the contacts on the stack that add additional capacitance as if it were in scan/changing mode.
Which contacts are these?

One of the wires from the motor capacitor will go back to the vertical stack of contacts on the front of the mechanism. That single wire is what we are looking for. The color code varies so I can't say which -but there are only three wires anyway.

I wonder if what you are hearing is not just "slow" but also has a wavering pitch aka: wow or flutter?

Is it possible to post a video with clear sound, or just a sound recording?

Rob

Bob,
Hearing the "clicking sound", only on one side would indicate a lack of, or improper lubrication, and can very well cause this problem. This can also be the result of the top clutch shaft bearing being improperly adjusted--or the bottom bearing being worn out --See the Service Manual. Is the top bearing of that motor oiled ?--It probably has no "oil cup", on top. If that's the case, you must find the "hole" ( or sometimes three holes) to saturate with the proper oil.
If you have a "nylon" main turntable gear on that mech, do NOT attempt to hold the turntable--at all ! Not a good idea for the fiber gears either, IMHO --
Adding the second cap during play serves no purpose to my mind--but, if still there, the small cap connected on the front of the mech to the motor terminal board , should be eliminated.
You say "no EXCESSIVE end play" on the TT shaft-- How much play is there --over 5/100ths is too much, did you check that bearing/plate ?
There should be "zero" play in the motor coupling shaft, and the coupling must be installed correctly, and still be flexible. Ron Rich

Bob,
Hearing the "clicking sound", only on one side would indicate a lack of, or improper lubrication, and can very well cause this problem. This can also be the result of the top clutch shaft bearing being improperly adjusted--or the bottom bearing being worn out --See the Service Manual. Is the top bearing of that motor oiled ?--It probably has no "oil cup", on top. If that's the case, you must find the "hole" ( or sometimes three holes) to saturate with the proper oil.
If you have a "nylon" main turntable gear on that mech, do NOT attempt to hold the turntable--at all ! Not a good idea for the fiber gears either, IMHO --
Adding the second cap during play serves no purpose to my mind--but, if still there, the small cap connected on the front of the mech to the motor terminal board , should be eliminated.
You say "no EXCESSIVE end play" on the TT shaft-- How much play is there --over 5/1000ths is too much, did you check that bearing/plate ?
There should be "zero" play in the motor coupling shaft, and the coupling must be installed correctly, and still be flexible. Ron Rich

Hi Ron

No oil cups or holes on my motor. Motor is saturated with oil from some previous time. About .002 end play and bearing plate is fine. see pictures of motor terminal board and motor.

Thanks
Bob

Adding the second cap during play serves no purpose to my mind

The idea was to see if the run cap was weak by adding capacitance -it is called a "test":-)

I agree with the lube idea and if the machine has been sitting idle for a long time the motor mounts and coupling may have formed a memory that shifts slightly when direction changes. However, the fact that the unit reverses readily indicated that this isn't likely a problem.

You say "no EXCESSIVE end play" on the TT shaft-- How much play is there --over 5/1000ths is too much

Personally, I don't see this as a problem. All three of the V-VL's I have in service have end play, one is close to 1/8th inch. It shifts when the clamp closes, after 24 years it has not caused a problem. Since there is no adjustable thrust bearing, I don't worry about it.

In keeping with your suggestion about lubrication, I suggest that the mech be lubed and also, with no record playing feel the mach and see if there is an increase in vibration when the mech is in the "B" play mode. Dry or glazed bearings in the clutch shaft might not cause noise but will cause vibration that can affect speed. That is why I suggested a recording be posted.

Rob

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Bob I tried to respond to your PM but it seems you have responses blocked. So here is what I tried to send:

Bob, a better idea is to send u/l it to a host: http://www.fileconvoy.com/

That way everyone can hear it.

Rob

Rob
Sent the file
Bob

Hi Rob,
Adding the "scan cap", when in play, will usually cause the motor to "growl"--thus, IMHO, negating any test value to doing this--
The "adjustable" end play feature was added because if not 100% lined up with the record rack, it is possible for the end bearing to wear down enough that the record rubs on the separators.
On your V's, I would suggest that it is time to change those .187 balls--and maybe the thrust plate, before you ruin records ?
As for a recording--I think that would be a great idea--if done well, so we could see/hear the problem-- Ron Rich