AMI Continental on free play - selection troubleshooting

Hi all,

New to this forum and hoping to get some advice on how to tackle a couple of issues with my Continental. Been a jukebox enthusiast for years, but took a break from the hobby after finishing the restoration of my Conti back in 2006. I got help from an email based forum called jukebox collectors back then.

I recently powered it up after many years sitting idle, and It will accept one or two selections and play them fine, but after that it's like it has no credits left - the buttons don't engage. Sometimes if you hold the two buttons down to form a selection (they don't lock in) the wipers will move to the right position but it seems to die just short of pushing the pin in and following through on playing the record.

The other issue is that on the occasion that it does select a record, sometimes the pin gets pushed in too far and gets stuck. The record gets placed on the turntable, then the mechanism tries to push/deselect that pin, but because the pin is far in and stuck, the record gets put back in the basket and brought back out again. This repeats until I open up the cabinet and manually push the pin out myself.

Any pointers on where to start would be appreciated! Here are some pics for those interested: http://imgur.com/a/cRRcz

Regards
Dan

Dan, these machines use low-DC for most functions. I've always replaced the old rectifier with silicon diodes 10 amp/100 volt or greater) and upped the size of the filter cap.

The failure to reset pins is also low-DC function, but make sure they are clean and --not-- greased. On one Cont. that I bought the previous owner had caked the pinwheel with some form of white grease that had hardened. All 200 pins had to be removed and the whole thing soaked in emulsifier along with scrubbing each pin.

In the search unit there is an electrolytic capacitor that determines the length of the punch. When this loses capacitance the pulse becomes too short. I can't recall its value, perhaps 100mfd(?) but it should be replaced and going up --slightly- say, by adding another 10mfd helps assure pins are punched. Don't go beyond that or it will blow the DC fuse.

As always, check the condition of the wipers in the search unit.

Rob-NYC

Hi Dan,
To add to Rob's advise, I would suggest that you should look at the AC motor that runs the "pulse generator". This motor, like almost all of this type, if, not properly lubricated, will jam when warm-hot. Also check the contacts associated herein. Ron Rich

Ron, I think you mean to oil the search motor. There is no pulse generator in the Continental. Beginning with the "K" AMI used a direct wired setup and a stepper was optional and only for wallboxes.

IIRC beginning with K:

Manual: Roller wheel directly geared to the pin puncher.

Automatic: Keyboard directly connected to the search traces. Similar to what they used up till 1977.

Electric: Keyboard goes through a stepper.

With the Continental there was only Manual and a direct-wired version. A stepper could be added.

I may have the "automatic" and "electric" descriptions reversed, but those were the option in K and Continental. The foreign versions of the "L" also offered a manual version using the old style mech. I guess they wanted to keep it simple and use up parts on-hand. I've seen pic's of the BAL-AMI versions of H and I using the old D80 style mech. Really odd looking.

Rob

Hi Rob,
I anna gotz no doubtz that I waz wrong, and you iz rite--Itz that damn AC motor whut sticks when hot !!
Ron Rich

Thanks for the replies.

Do you know what sort of modifications are done on this machine to make it run on free play? It doesn't have a coin mech, and I believe there is something in place to keep the buttons latched that is failing. It will make one selection after sitting around idle for a long time - like it has to "charge" back up.

Here is a video of the jukebox failing to push the pin back to better describe the other problem: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B57M_ ... nd2WlBEeUU

Could it be perhaps that the arms that push the pins are too close to the pins themselves, occasionally pushing them too far in?

The jukebox is currently at my folks place so I've had very limited time to look at it, but I will be moving it to mine soon so I can give it more attention. Also got a copy of the service manual on the way.

Thanks again
Dan

Hi Dan.
Generally, on those, "people" tend to dis-able the credit subtract solenoids --usually by opening the junction of the two coils in the center of them-- It sounds as if maybe the credit wipers have "sat" in the same place for a long time and have either just lost good contact, or maybe are "burning through" the contact wafer on the credit unit--move & clean, the wipers, and contact.
Pins can not be "pushed too far" as there is a stop, on the "pusher"-- Ron Rich

Dan, the rest hammer is not retracting far enough to clear the pin. You can see it pop back a bit just before it cancels. This sort of thing happens when things get dirty and old oil turns into molasses. The pins are supposed to be punched all the way so that the struck side in either select or cancel is flush with the wheel casting. That part looks to be OK. The fact that the reset isn't fully retracting may have caused that assembly to become misaligned.

You can get an overview of that stopping switch assembly and functional wiring here:

http://s1192.photobucket.com/user/Rob-N ... t=3&page=1

http://s1192.photobucket.com/user/Rob-N ... t=3&page=2 The colored scans.

As for the failure to step-up to credit after a few selections, In this case it is due to pitted-dirty contacts points in the search unit relays, credit unit and keyboard. The machine is over 50 years of age and probably neglected, this sort of problem is normal.

Take a look at the post above on contacts and cleaning, beyond that I'd wait for the service manual.

BTW: That gripper motor sounds dry as a bone. It needs to be oiled before any testing is done or you risk scoring the gears and bearings. If the gearbox is the sealed and riveted type I carefully make a small hole at one corner so as to insert the hose of a "zoomspout" type oiler. Be really careful no to let the drill bit go into the gearbox as it may damage a gear.

Rob

I didn't notice the reset hammer retracting further back after trying to cancel. Hopefully a good clean of that assembly will solve the issue. I still don't have the jukebox in my possession yet, but it looks like I might have a sealed transfer motor according to this photo: http://imgur.com/a/cjXqK ... So should I make a small hole in the corner and lubricate with sewing machine oil?

Also, I can't seem to find the credit unit. According to the service manual it looks to be just above the power supply, whereas on mine there is just an empty bracket: http://imgur.com/a/sWk0S ... Could there have been some other modification to make it run on free play without a credit unit?

Thanks a lot for your help Rob and Ron. I've removed the title case and dome and got some help ready to move the jukebox here tomorrow, hopefully can get it running smoothly again soon.

Dan, in your video you can see that the reset hammer is actually against the raised pin and it retracts slightly further after attempting to reset the pin. In proper operation it should clear a fully raised pin by about 1/16th to 1/8th as it travels. This is a mechanical issue due to dirt and lack of lubrication.

The AMI is probably the easiest jukebox when it comes to eliminating the credit unit. On those machines all the CU does is establish a circuit to allow the search motor to be started via the keyboard, and separate circuit trace turns on the "Select" lamp(s). There is also no harm in leaving it 'credited" since the latchbar solenoid is actually non-energized when credit is established -the reverse of most other designs. If you want to make it work on-coin you need to find a CU and its harness wiring then follow the schematic in the service manual. A later CU from the Rowe 1960's- early '70s may also be used, but some wiring coordination will be necessary.

For the gripper motor; you won't be able to drill a hole for oiling directly at a corner as there are rivets there. The safest but not ideal location is at the short side that faces the front of the machine and about a half inch down from the rivet shaft.
In making the hole use a drill stop or just wrap some masking tape around the bit about ½ from the tip to prevent the bit from going too far in and damaging a gear. Proper drill method is important here. Don't use too much pressure, the idea is to allow the drill bit to carry outward as much of the shavings as possible and not to 'blast through" and push that debris into the gearbox.

Oiling is then done with a zoomspout type oiler using a motor oil. Ideally a 20 wt non detergent type. The technique is simply to feel around with the tip of the hose and liberally apply oil, then run the motor a few times and oil it again. The motor on those is 120VAC . This is a bit inefficient and some oil will leak out of the gearbox, but given the realities of the design I find this the best approach. This same oil will be used on all the other bearings and gears as well.

The amp --must-- have its coupling capacitors replaced at a minimum. I suggest unplugging the amp while sorting out the other problems. You may want to install a newer pickup and installing an additional counterweight at the real of the tonearm as I did here: http://s1192.photobucket.com/user/Rob-N ... rt=2&o=100. This will improve both sound quality and reduce record wear. There are some "advisers" who advocate installing a ceramic pickup and modding the amp input for this cheap cartridge. That is ridiculous. The preamp on these amps is a good design and given a newer cart will vastly outperform the crap cart others suggest (end of personal opinion)

Rob-NYC

Hi Rob! Yes it's very clear in the video now you point it out. I've had this issue since I got it in 2006, although it was far more intermittent it wasn't a high priority to fix it. It's great to know what the cause is now, thanks. I'll also tackle the transfer motor soon - very apprehensively though I'm afraid of getting it wrong. Just to clarify - so the shorter side facing the front, half inch down from the rivet shaft - should it be in the centre? Or does that not matter...

So given that the credit unit is missing, a circuit has been closed somewhere that de-energises the latch solenoid allowing selections to be made all the time - if I understand correctly. Where should I be looking for this? I'd like to pinpoint where the bad contact is that is only dropping the latch bars in latch position on occasion. Usually on start up, then maybe after sitting around for another half hour.

Also, I actually changed the cartridge at the same time as having the amp rebuilt in 2007. From memory it has a Pickering NP/AC cartridge, I'm pretty happy with how it's sounding. The counterweight is a great idea though, would be looking to implement something like that down the track.

Just to clarify - so the shorter side facing the front, half inch down from the rivet shaft - should it be in the centre? Or does that not matter..

As close to teh top as possible. This will make it easier to snake the oil hose onto the gears.

So given that the credit unit is missing, a circuit has been closed somewhere that de-energises the latch solenoid allowing selections to be made all the time - if I understand correctly. Where should I be looking for this?

Dan, since AMI has no junction box and the credit unit has been removed, that limits it to the relay contacts in the search unit and one on the keyboard assembly. Careful cleaning should fix this problem. AMI used telco-type relays with unique blades. these don't normally deform, but after this many years sometimes it is necessary to slightly restore proper contact wiping action. A "contact bender" is used for this and it takes a bit of skill with these delicate blades to keep from damaging them by fracturing the copper.

If you have not already I suggest first reading the post on contacts
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6404 Then ask any additional questions and/or wait for the manual.

Also, I actually changed the cartridge at the same time as having the amp rebuilt in 2007. From memory it has a Pickering NP/AC cartridge, I'm pretty happy with how it's sounding.

Great. That is exactly what I've used and would have suggested.

Rob

So I finally have the machine in my home ready to work on. I haven't cleaned the contacts just yet, but after shifting it here it would select records if you hold down two selection buttons. Now if you hold down the two selection buttons it triggers the search unit and stops at the right selection but it does not trigger the pin pusher. Hopefully all will be sorted after a good clean.

I "refurbished" this jukebox in 2006, getting the metals re-plated, repainting the cabinet, amp rebuilt etc. I was much younger then and left it at my parents place since. Now that I've got it years later, I'm not completely satisfied with it's condition. The paint job isn't a professional one and I'm considering getting the gold aluminium trim re-plated again if possible. Originally I believe it was a more pale gold finish, compared to the very solid yellow gold that were the results from the re-plating. My pieces are also a bit bent in places - which I suspect might have been the electroplater back then, though I may be wrong.

I've got a few general questions about cleaning up the mechanism. Most of the metal in the machine is looking very tired, I want to disassemble the mechanism and clean it up. I'm not sure how to clean a lot of the metals. Here is a pic of the selection bank now, http://imgur.com/a/hHUwJ ... What would be the best way to clean the rust? Also, on the silver panels there is are black marks that have a rough finish that look like it can be cleaned off. Any ideas what products are best to use, or is it necessary to replace these pieces (with zinc?) to get them looking new again? There is also some surface rust on top of the main fuse box and junction box.

I am also going to get the record basket re-plated as the finish is wearing off in places and has a bit of overspray from when the machine was painted one time (before I got it). Does anyone know what metal this is and how it should be treated? Same for the long handles on the rear doors. Would like to have those re plated too.

And finally, originally this juke came with a turntable with a smaller spindle to be compatible with Australian records, but the shaft was loose causing irregular speed so I had to replace with the much more common American turntable with larger spindle. I was wondering, on the Conti 2 with auto mix feature. If I found one of these turntables could I use in mine to play the smaller holed 45s?

I've been away for a while, so just catching up.

In regard to Rob's description of AMi's MANUAL-AUTOMATIC-ELECTRIC nomenclature. You have it correct.

MANUAL has the peculiar mechanical dial that directly turns the pin pusher arm

AUTOMATIC has a motor that turns the pin pusher arm. The position of the pin pusher arm is controlled by Letter/Number wiper arms. The pushbutton bank directly controls the Letter/Number wipers, so you can't put a wallbox on an ELECTRIC model without an add on...that's what's needed on the Continental if you want a wallbox.

ELECTRIC is just like the AUTOMATIC but with a more complex pushbutton bank that has a second set of wipers and is essentially a wallbox built into the jukebox pushbutton assembly. This allows selections to be made simultaneously on the jukebox and on a wallbox, and the jukebox will play traffic cop and let the pulses come in from the wallbox, then allow the pulses to come in from the local pushbuttons. This "traffic cop" function is indicated by the lighting of the "Wait To Select" lamp.

I have a 200-selection "Electric" AMi K. The plate on the back says JEK-200, where the "E" designates that it is an Electric model, and the "K" designates it is the Model K. The "200" is obvious. Who know what the "J" stands for.... maybe it just means "Jukebox", which just confuses everyone into thinking it's a Model J.

I am in no way sure of this, but what I was told (by a "reliable source") is the "J" in a model number indicates it was a "Jensen" designed mechanism, or total phono, other then the cabinet. Ron Rich
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