Rowe 1100 Mech Adjustment Help..

foxtrotxray · by **foxtrotxray** » Thu Jul 09, 2015 7:58 pm

Ron Rich wrote:Two thoughts come to mind here---
1. Check that cam switch,with an Analog meter, as shown in a post above--it may be having problems !
2. It should be adjustable as to where - when it triggers, by loosening the mounting screws and sliding it closer/further from the cam.
Ron Rich

Hm - I'll check that switch. Since it's only off by a slight amount, perhaps the switch is adjusted in too tightly. Will give it a shot tonight.

Thanks!
-Mike

djricksha · by **djricksha** » Thu Jul 09, 2015 8:23 pm

HI YOU CANNOT ADJUST THE CAM ON THAT MECH, IT PUSHES ONTO THE PIN WHICH MAKES TIMING SIMPLE, THE EARLIER MECHS WITH 8 MICRO SWITCHES THE CAM WAS HELD IN POSITION WITH A CLAMP SO TIMING IT UP HAD TO DONE, THE ADJUSTMENT OF THE MICRO SWITCH IS EITHER TOWARDS THE CAM OR AWAY FROM IT, THE ACTUATOR MUST BE IN GOOD CONTACT WITH THE CAM BEFORE IT IS FULLY ACTUATED BY THE NOTCH OR RAISED PART OF THE CAM. WHAT YEAR IS THE MECH FROM. BUT LIKE RON SAID CHECK THE MICRO SWITCH, WHEN CHECKING TIMING THE LONG CRANK PIN MUST BE VERTICAL IN LINE WITH THE MOTOR MOUNT SCREW. BUT I DON'T THINK TIMING IS THE ISSUE, I WOULD REMOVE THE TRANFER MOTOR ASSEMBLY AND CHECK THE LONG AND SHORT PINS ETC LIKE ALAN SAID, BEST TO WORK YOUR WAY THROUGH EVERY POSSIBILITY.

foxtrotxray · by **foxtrotxray** » Fri Jul 10, 2015 4:17 pm

djricksha wrote:HI YOU CANNOT ADJUST THE CAM ON THAT MECH

Caps-Lock!

Yelling at me ain't gonna get me to move any faster..!

Okay guys, update -

Last night I spent about two hours, having the mech select and reject over 100 records. Sometimes I did it manually (by rotating the cam by hand), and each time I watched what was going on. I made adjustments to the long arm some times, comparing "before"s and "after"s. I also worked on the crescent-shaped metal segment that the black lifting arm presses down on to life the tone-arm (which some of you mentioned could be warped). Here's my final conclusion -

The issue is in the transfer motor, transmission, or the lifting rod. (Maybe my lifting rod is worn?)

The overall RANGE of motion - from the cam lifting the tone-arm to the cam setting the tone-arm down - is not enough. With the long arm adjusted so that there's 1/16th clearance between the needle and the transfer arm, the tone-arm sits too high and rides up off the record. If I adjust it down, well, then, the record plays fine, but the tonearm hits the transfer arm. D'oh.
The crescent-shaped plate IS BENT, but it's bent DOWN. (i.e. The wrong way.) A few times, when I had the long-arm adjusted, the needle would lose tracking in the middle of the record, and not even make contact by the inside of the record. I have not adjusted this yet - BUT it wouldn't matter: It would give the same result as adjusting the long-arm. (Adjust it down, and then the tone-arm wouldn't lift high enough to clear the transfer-arm..)

I tried adjusting the switch, and while it helped, it didn't help *enough*. It was still riding up some. (And I took it to the extreme - any more adjustment out, and the switch wouldn't even register, the record ending up cancelling itself immediately as the transfer motor never stops..)

So this means I have wear - not on the gears (since motion on the arm is rather snug - very little play), but somewhere else. This is leading me to believe that the angle part (with the 'Long Crank Pin' and the 'Short Crank Pin' - the pins that raise and lower the 'sector gear' (the quarter-circle-shaped gear)) is either worn or bent, or the 'transfer link' (the piece of metal that is connected to the sector gear and the right-angle assembly on the transfer motor) is worn, limiting the movement of the sector gear.

This weekend I'm going to strip that section of the mech apart again, and go through it all a second time. It can't hurt, and maybe I'll find something I did wrong. (Forget a E-clip?, etc..) I'll re-step through the adjustments as well while assembling, make sure that's not an issue either.

Thanks for the input, guys!

djricksha · by **djricksha** » Fri Jul 10, 2015 6:01 pm

foxtrotxray wrote:
djricksha wrote:HI YOU CANNOT ADJUST THE CAM ON THAT MECH
Caps-Lock! Yelling at me ain't gonna get me to move any faster..!

HI, The long arm adjustment just clarify things is made forward of the notch that is in it, toward the cartridge end of the tone arm, do not bend it behind the notch towards the cam end, forward of the notch adjusts cartridge clearance of gripper arm when tone arm moves across to play record, and this only. the screw halfway down the tone arm adjusts stylus height only. the crescent shaped plate also affects the height of the tone arm when clearing the gripper bow. bent to far down the tone arm will not clear the gripper bow, bent to far up and you loose stylus pressure when in play. there is a fine line between the two. to much adjustment in one will affect the other, as I said in an earlier post have you had a record in play that slides or skips, and lifted up the long arm at the cam end, if it plays fine with the arm lifted off the cam the crescent plate is bent up to far . There must be the smallest of gaps between the arm and the plate when record is in play. after checking theses things with still no joy, then remove the transfer motor assembly and check the long and short pins to see if they are firmly attached, (no up and down movement ) sorry for caps lock.
Okay guys, update -

Last night I spent about two hours, having the mech select and reject over 100 records. Sometimes I did it manually (by rotating the cam by hand), and each time I watched what was going on. I made adjustments to the long arm some times, comparing "before"s and "after"s. I also worked on the crescent-shaped metal segment that the black lifting arm presses down on to life the tone-arm (which some of you mentioned could be warped). Here's my final conclusion -

The issue is in the transfer motor, transmission, or the lifting rod. (Maybe my lifting rod is worn?)

The overall RANGE of motion - from the cam lifting the tone-arm to the cam setting the tone-arm down - is not enough. With the long arm adjusted so that there's 1/16th clearance between the needle and the transfer arm, the tone-arm sits too high and rides up off the record. If I adjust it down, well, then, the record plays fine, but the tonearm hits the transfer arm. D'oh.
The crescent-shaped plate IS BENT, but it's bent DOWN. (i.e. The wrong way.) A few times, when I had the long-arm adjusted, the needle would lose tracking in the middle of the record, and not even make contact by the inside of the record. I have not adjusted this yet - BUT it wouldn't matter: It would give the same result as adjusting the long-arm. (Adjust it down, and then the tone-arm wouldn't lift high enough to clear the transfer-arm..)

I tried adjusting the switch, and while it helped, it didn't help *enough*. It was still riding up some. (And I took it to the extreme - any more adjustment out, and the switch wouldn't even register, the record ending up cancelling itself immediately as the transfer motor never stops..)

So this means I have wear - not on the gears (since motion on the arm is rather snug - very little play), but somewhere else. This is leading me to believe that the angle part (with the 'Long Crank Pin' and the 'Short Crank Pin' - the pins that raise and lower the 'sector gear' (the quarter-circle-shaped gear)) is either worn or bent, or the 'transfer link' (the piece of metal that is connected to the sector gear and the right-angle assembly on the transfer motor) is worn, limiting the movement of the sector gear.

This weekend I'm going to strip that section of the mech apart again, and go through it all a second time. It can't hurt, and maybe I'll find something I did wrong. (Forget a E-clip?, etc..) I'll re-step through the adjustments as well while assembling, make sure that's not an issue either.

Thanks for the input, guys!

Rob-NYC · by **Rob-NYC** » Sat Jul 11, 2015 2:43 am

At this point you've probably spent way more time than needed to figure out the problem...it is now Gepetto Time.

When wear makes the bottom cam slot or crank roller too worn to properly lift the tonearm lever, I simply boot either the cam lobe or the lever itself with PVC shrink or Temflex tubing. Regular clear tubing can be used. This provides the needed 1/16+ added clearance. One hideaway has had this since 1994 and is still going.

I got the idea from an ancient N phono that had worn a notch in the cam lobe (you can imagine how many plays that had on it). The op that I bought it from ($50) explained that 'was how it was done" in those cases. Apparently, it was a common solution as I've since seen it several times. One op said that he did this routinely to prevent a notch from forming on the cam, whether it was needed or not.

Rob

by **ami-man** » Sat Jul 11, 2015 7:39 am

Hi Rob we always used to sleeve the lift arm as a matter of course, I have seen plenty of grooves worn into cams, the worst one I saw the cam was almost worn all the way through. I have also seen the cam sleeved as an alternative and even cams that have been filled with fibre glass or magic putty to keep them going.

Regards
Alan

Alan Hood
ami-man
UK

Rob-NYC · by **Rob-NYC** » Sat Jul 11, 2015 11:51 am

Alan, I did see at least one with a deep notch in the cam lobe. Since it didn't adequately lift the arm it bounced on the plastic 'bumper" they put on later bows.

I can think of several areas where this was a less than stellar mechanism, but if taken care of it does hold up and the kludges needed are simple enough.

The later one (R84-on) was much better...except for the tonearm pivot....

Rob

by **Ron Rich** » Sat Jul 11, 2015 4:56 pm

Guys,
Rowe sold a plastic (nylon?) sleeve for that purpose-- I have seen lotza them ! I have also filled the notch--JB Weld worked well for me on that--
Ron Rich

foxtrotxray · by **foxtrotxray** » Sat Jul 11, 2015 8:12 pm

Wow, okay, that's interesting.

One question though - since the issue (SEEMS) to be with the RANGe of motion, if I put shrink-wrap tubing around the lift section of the came, wouldn't that affect BOTH the pick-up height and the drop-off height? (i.e. the range of motion would be the same.. just increments some..!)

I have the tonearm off right now (I just posted about the conneciton cable, since i'm going to re-do that while the arm is off) and am about to drop the mech, and do an inspection. I should be back in a while with any images (if things don't look right.)

Cheers -
Mike

djricksha · by **djricksha** » Sat Jul 11, 2015 11:41 pm

When you put the shrink rap on you will have to re adjust, but I do not see any noticeable wear in the cam. this has gone on long enough for a quite simple fix, sorry but I am under the influence of rum and cola and jukebox music at the moment. sorry guys but rum and jukebox music does this to certain people.

foxtrotxray · by **foxtrotxray** » Sat Jul 11, 2015 11:45 pm

Thanks to ALL of you for ALL your help.

I have no idea how this affected it (I'm common-sense smart, not book-smart!), but here's what I did, in general. (Pics will follow!)

First I dropped the transfer motor/cam switches. Everything there looked good - EXCEPT that the long-arm cam (which moves the follower, that pushes up on the sector gear (the quarter-round light aluminum gear) had some wear on it. The vertical push-rod (which engages the with the sector gear and the popularity meter plate) also has some wear. THIS is where the play in my transfer arm is coming from. However, since there was nothing I could do about that now, I put those back together.

Then I started looking at the sector gear and the 'drive pinion'. (The latter is the black gear that meshes with the pinion gear and rotates the tone-arm cam and the transfer arm.) I 'slipped' the two gears one tooth off from what they were. (Rotated the pinion gear and that assembly counter-clockwise.) I cannot remember if I did it on purpose, or was just a mistake. Likely a mistake. But after doing that, I was forced to re-align the 'Cam & Trunion Drive Gear' (the multi-faceted gear that controls the transfer arm.)

Now, I followed the manual and set it to a 3/32" gap (between the mech base and the gear stop), and that was too much - so I had to move it out some. It's more like 1/4" away from the stop.

I don't know which change 'fixed' it - likely the pinion and sector gear - but now the tone-arm cam lifts the black lifting lever WAY far enough, and is still good enough where the tone-arm does NOT hit the transfer arm (like it did when I adjusted the tone-arm cam earlier in this thread). I do not know WHY this affected it that way - my brain is telling me that changing the gear teeth by one would be the same as adjusting the tone-arm cam, but it obviously isn't as it's all good now.

Thanks again guys, that was a learning experience.

djricksha · by **djricksha** » Sun Jul 12, 2015 12:05 am

IF it IS ALL good now then you have fixed the problem yourself, you can not beat experience. sorry for being piss##.

Rob-NYC · by **Rob-NYC** » Sun Jul 12, 2015 12:43 am

Wow, that mech must be either really worn, or tinkered by someone in the past. When I tried that technique the results were way too far off to use.

Congrats for accomplishing that, mistake, or not. You are correct in that practical experience --with documentation-- is the best teacher in these cases.

Rob

foxtrotxray · by **foxtrotxray** » Sun Jul 12, 2015 12:50 am

djricksha wrote:IF it IS ALL good now then you have fixed the problem yourself, you can not beat experience. sorry for being piss##.

Nah, everyone helped with their input! .. Drunk or not!

I'm not a restorer - I don't do this with plans to sell or take to shows and show off. I do it because I like learning how things work. (And, admittedly, I'm a lot more inclined to mechanical crap than I am electronic, though I do know my way around a soldering iron and schematics.) Now that the mech is working, and I'll be rewiring the tonearm and connection tonight, that's it for the mechanicals. I'll close the lid and start cleaning the cabinet - while it's playing, of course. (Then, after that, I'll send the amp out to get rebuilt.)

I'm also slightly OCD when it comes to things working. If I take it apart and reassemble, it's gotta work at LEAST as good - or better - as it did before I took it apart.

This is why I started this thread. I couldn't figure out why it was working the way it was, and was looking for input on things to check.

Rob-NYC wrote:Wow, that mech must be either really worn, or tinkered by someone in the past. When I tried that technique the results were way too far off to use.

Congrats for accomplishing that, mistake, or not. You are correct in that practical experience --with documentation-- is the best teacher in these cases.

Yeah - the more I've worked on this, the more messed up this juke is turning out to be.

More examples -
(1) While installing the money meter, I found that someone had hard-wired a switch into the coin levers, so that when the coin-reject was pressed, it'd give a credit. The switch was installed with *super glue* against the mech housing, and the wires used were 12-gauge wire from an extension cord.
(2) I found an E-clip (C-clip?) taped to the outside of the coin-mech housing as well. Apparently it must have been taken off of *something*, and taped up to save it. I have no idea where it came from, but I'm keeping it in case I find a place for it..!

foxtrotxray · by **foxtrotxray** » Sun Aug 02, 2015 10:43 pm

An update -
I believe my motors getting .. well, magnetized?

As was previously mentioned, there's a piece of the motor that, when power is applied, pops in and engages the motor, turning the gears. When power is applied, it pops out and spins down without continuing to spin the transmission attached.

I've been using the juke (heavily at times, especially when I've been cleaning the outside of the cabinet), and this 'clutch' gear seems to be sticking in more and more - causing the cam to continue rotating until it's off the C5 switch, causing it to "roll through" and cancel the playing record.

When I first figured out this thread, it wasn't happening at all. Now, maybe 1 in 20 records played will roll through, and I think it's getting worse.

Not TOO familiar with motors like this.. anyway to look into this? (There are transfer motors on ebay for cheap - I can live with just replacing it.)

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