Help with Rockola Write in Motor and Carriage

Hi
Been at this all day and all night.. sure you guys been there yourselves!!

Got a real problem with a rockola 441 1969 model, hoping someone can give me a few hints..

Mech all rebuilt, credit unit works, push buttons work, then nothing! the wiper motor should begin but its dead, I swapped out with another motor that I know works, still dead. A couple of times (but stopped now!!) when I turned the write in carriage by hand it stopped at the correct pins and even the solenoid kicked the pin. The read out carriage begins to spin, locates the correct pin, and everything works from that point. Then record is replaced in magazine, but the solenoid on the read out carriage does not punch the pin back, so the arm swings round again and stops and plays the same record again and again!!!

So from looking at my manuals and schematics I've gone mad, checking the write in relay, I thought the control box may have a problem so I swapped out for another one, still same issue.

In conclusion, the whole sequence appears to function with my intervention, but the area that is problematic is, the write in motor not working, and now the solenoids on the write in carriage arm, and the solenoid on the read in carriage arm to put the pin back after play.

Does anyone have any suggestions as to where to look now.... thank you!

Hi
I would say firstly check the latch and lock bars, as this action will start the write in relay, also check write in relay which will start the write in motor, I had a recent problem with selection and the write in problems on a 448 which was related to a bad connection on the keyboard and was not grounding properly, the read out arm not canceling could be related to dirt on the slip rings and microswitches
regards
clones

Check your schematic--I THINK that's all on the 25vac circuit--"Poor" plug connection ??
Ron Rich

Hi Guys, Here's the story so far...

The Write in relay works, I see the solenoid pull down and switches close/open. I have tested the switch contacts and they all work fine on the relay. When I make a selection, the write in replay works which I'm sure should power the write in motor to turn. I disconnected the write in lead (black and a yellow leads), there appears to be nothing on the yellow lead when popping in a test meter, or if I poke the probe in to the Power Unit socket for the Mech. Should there be a reading? I have all the schematics but having a problem understanding them.
Any suggestions?

By the way, it appears that its only the fact the write in arm does not operate, because if I manually flick a lever on the selector the whole machine comes to life, the magazine turns, the read-out arm spins and selects record, plays, puts record back and flicks the slector lever back in place, and stops on home position. So its the write in arm thats a pain., Help!!!!!

You say you "tested" the contacts on the relay ?? How did you "test them" ?
If they are truly good, look for the motor power source and see where it is being "lost".
Ron Rich

Hi
the write in relay when it operates should start the write in motor, (even if you actuate it be hand), either there's a break somewhere between the relay and the motor or the contacts on the relay are not making fully, i have seen this before on several Rockolas where the contacts were not making fully and the write in motor would not start, i would suggest cleaning the contacts
regards
Clones

thank you guys for the advice... I have now cleaned and checked the contacts, but no joy! So I sat down and traced each wire one by one from the write in relay. And I have now found the problem but introduced another!!!!
I know it's gonna make me look stupid, but its worth me telling just in case someone else gets the problem. OK it was simple, I traced the wires to the tone arm switch, where three connectors push on. The one from the micro-switch No.3 was pushed on to the wrong tab on the tone arm!!! Swapped them over and it fixed the problem.

So, everything now works... Well not quite. Now I've fixed this problem its introduced another problem that didn't exist before. The write in works, record is played (with out amp at the moment!!), arm returns, record is placed back in magazine, and now the read out arm does not push the selector pin back, the arm just rotates a couple of times, then stops at pin and plays the same record again, when record ends, it goes thru the same process again, record replaced, read out arm just spins a couple of times, stops and plays the same record... a la Groundhog Day!!!!
I guess the solenoid/hammer is not pushing pin back, had a look around cannot see anything obvious.. sorry to ask again, any suggestions.
thanks

Hi
I would firstly clean the slip rings and contacts of the read out arm, it is possible a solenoid is defective but rarely happens to me anyway, did you check b sides to see it that one works,
clones

Hi
thanks for suggestion. I tried the B side and that did the same, Current Limiting light remained on, while the read out arm spins again, and refuses to push the selector pin back. Just as a bit more info, while the read out arm was going round, I tried to manually push the selector pin back so the carriage didn't stop again, but I could not push it back as the wobble solenoid was still on refusing to let me flick the pin back!!! Is that how it should be??

Mark,
Which "tone arm switch" has three wires ? I suspect the reason it will not return a pin, is connected to what you have done (one or more of those connections is still wrong ?).-- If the wobble plate coil is staying energized ( which it should with the lamp lit), It seems to me that the cancel coil either will not have enough "juice" to operate, or that even if it did, the coil could not overcome the pressure of the wobble plate coil. Word of advice here--do NOT keep repeating this process, or you may overheat, one or more coils ! Ron Rich

Thanks Rich
I did sort out the wires to tone arm, reason there were 3 connectors as the Tone arm pillar came from a later machine!
However, Sunday evening has been spent in a cold garage trying to solve the mystery. Here's where I'm at.
The read out carriage solenoids work fine. I think the reason the selector levers can't be pushed back is because the wobble plate solenoid is remaining powered so the hammer is struggling to push lever, Well thats what I think!!!
So I have been trying to find out why the solenoid is remaining powered... from what I've read here, and in the manuals the wobble plate solenoid only kicks in during the write in process. I traced the power from the "Stop Relay", this works fine. The stop relay apparently energises an accumulator coil in the Credit Unit, which removes a credit, and closes 2 impulse switches.
Watching these, the Stop Relay, the Accumulator Relay and Wobble Solenoid all remain active.. I needed to find out how they return to normal.
Reading the manual it mentions that the lock bar switches on the keypad release which resets all the above.. am I right in understanding this? However, these are NOT releasing, all the switches on the underside of the keypad (photo attached) remain in a locked position.
Has anyone got any suggestions of what I do next?
thanks

OK--you failed to mention that the keyboard is staying "locked down"--this makes sense, as when locked down,after the WI motor stops, it powers the wobble plate coil--ONCE AGAIN--Do NOT leave that coil "energized"---- It WILL burn up--quickly !!
Does your copy of the Service Manual have the sequence of events ? If so, see what "unlocks" the keyboard, fix that and I think your problems will be solved ( clean/adjust all relay contacts in pricing unit and keyboard ??) If not, use the schematic to find it-- Ron Rich

thanks again. think you've hit the nail on the head.... the credit unit, ADR relay does not appear to fire, if I manually tap this to actuate the switches, the lock bars release. Not tested while running with a selector lever out, as its past midnight and got work at 5am I'm calling it a night until tomorrow.
Thanks again for advice, fingers crossed!!!!!

Good Morning---
Check the supply for the coil--there is a rectum-fifer, and a cap in that power circuit --I think ??
Ron Rich

Hi
I had similar trouble before with a rockola 1493, the lamp would stay lit, keys wouldn't release, i am not sure how i fixed it but cleaning the adr contacts helped, along with cleaning the keyboard with ammonia solutionjust a further note i had trouble last night myself with the selection pins not being moved into position, the write in motor was fine and stopped at the correct position but no selection lever moved, i has a previous break in a keyboard wire which i temporary repaired with a strip connector, so i removed it and joined the wires with solder and it fixed it, alot of time spent on things but the only consolation is the more problems you find and troubleshoot the more experience you get
clones