Phonoland

Hi,

I hope someone can offer me some advice. Sorry for the long question.

I am restoring a Seeburg C. The juke has developed a short when I select a record (through the selector) and blows the 2amp slo-blo fuse in the Selection Receiver. Sometimes it lasts 50 selections and sometimes only 1 or 2 before it blows. Something appears to be sticking and a loud buzz is omitted (I think) from the CCU. I have checked all the contacts in the Electrical Selector. I initially thought is may be the counting meter, so I disconnected it without any improvement.

So I have started to clean and adjust the CCU. It is very dirty and needs work anyway.

I have come across a strange wire.

It is a rather heavy grade black covered wire leading from the 400 ohm Timing Relay. It appears to be original, is about half an inch long, and is bent at 90 degrees towards the backing plate, but it attaches to nothing. It is against one of the posts that hold the screws in place. The post has an insulation around it (the other 3 posts do not).

The timing relay has a wire from both sides (one red and one black) which feeds to the X Y Z contacts. This (unknown) wire comes off the 'red side' of the timing relay and appears to push up against the backing plate of the CCU. It is not long enough to reach any contacts and the backing plate has some pitting as if the wire has been pushing against it. No solder or connector is attached to this wire.

Does anyone know where this wire should attach? I have checked all my reference books, but I cannot find this wire.

Any help greatly appreciated as this short is driving me crazy.

Kind Regards

Gordon.

Gordo,
I would instantly change that 2 amp fuse for a smaller 1.6 amp MAX. Next check ALL coils in the SA unit, with a meter. Next --study the credit wheel in the CCU--Is it "snapping back" after the coil is de-energized ? If not, fix it--oil usually works.
No help on your strange wire without seeing it ?? Post a photo--
Ron Rich

Thanks Ron,

The CCU snaps back well and I oiled and cleaned it this morning.

I think the problem is that the CCU coil is staying energising far too long when I select a record.

Thanks

Gordo..

Gordo,
If it's staying energized too long ( same symptom if wheel is not free), check operation (adjustment) of the "W" contacts, as well as the timing relay contacts, and "65 gm pressure". I assume that you have changed the caps in the CCU ? If not, word of caution--the cap across the relay must be carefully changed without "flexing" the contact posts, as that item has a poor "habit" of opening the coil wire--right there.
Ron Rich

Ron,

Thanks for your advice. I will check the W contact. This may be the problem.

Please see my next post as I have done more testing.

Regards

Gordon...

Hi,

I've done some more checking (and blown another 15 fuses).

What's happening is......

When I select a number and letter in the Electical Selector, the latch bar solenoid does not activate to release the number/letter bars. They stay locked on. This causes the CCU coil to remain energised until either the fuse blows or eventually the latch bar activates and releases the number/letters.

If I release the number/letter manually (by pushing the bar running behind the number/letters), the latchbar solanoid activates and de-energises the CCU coil.

I have tried to adjust the switches on the number/letter contacts, but I am obviously missing something.

Any direction or advice greatly appreciated.

Also, I have found the size of the caps in the CCU. It appears they are .05mfd. 200V and 0.1mfd. 200V. (does this appear correct)?

Regards

Gordo.

Gordo,
IMHO,you are "spinning your wheels" in "adjusting" anything in the ES.
The only thing in the ES that can be causing a problem is a mechanical bind in the latch bar solenoid functions, that "hold" the latch bar from releasing. This, however, will not cause a fuse to blow ( I HOPE these are lower then 2A --or you ARE, destroying SAU coils !!!)
Read the Service Manual, for proper sequence of operation, and contact adjustments,of the ES, and CCU. Yes--those cap values are correct-- Ron Rich

Hi Ron,

Thanks again for the advice. I have followed the manual to my understanding. The W contact is working.

I have set the points, cleaned and oiled the CCU and replaced the caps. I have a 1.5 amp blo-blo fuse installed.

The first 5 selections went great and I thought I had resolved the problem.

Then the Cancel Solenoid stayed activated, buzzed for a few seconds and blew the fuse again! Something is not releasing and the Cancel Solenoid is remaining activated.

If I remove the Selector Assembly and manually push the rods behind the letters/numbers (after I select a number/letter, while the cancel solenoid is activated and buzzing), it activates the latch-bar solenoid, releases the numbers/letters, and de-activates the cancel solenoid as it should.

But it will not work when I select the numbers and letters.

Regards

Gordon.

Hi Gordo,
I don't know why I did not think of this earlier--you can save the fuses, by leaving them out while
testing--(might save a little $$ here too !).
I still doubt there are any problems in the ES--what you did was to interrupt the hold circuit, and what it did then seems "normal" to me.
Have you changed the relay cap ? When you say you adjusted the points--have you used a burnishing tool on them--are they dry, and free of "pits" ? Did you check them for continuity with a GOOD, Analog type, meter ? Is the wire from the W contacts to the relay soldered well--at both ends ? Is the relay starting pressure correct--is the relay phenolic loose on the metal?
Check the coil core stop--is the brass plug still installed in it --or has it broken off, and possibly getting "caught" in the plunger path ? Or is it totally "missing", and is the plunger magnetized ?
Is your neg DC voltage 17 or better?
I will bet that one or more of the above is causing your trouble--but not very much !!
Ron Rich

Hi Ron,

Thanks for sticking with me on this matter. You won the bet!

I followed your instructions and IT WORKS!!!!

The timing relay was very lazy, that's why it works sometimes and not others. Everytime I checked it was working. It required a good clean, adjustment and general tidy-up. This juke has not been in service for many years.

The next problem is that now it's working, the cancel solenoid is 'chattering'. I assume this means incorrectly adjusted points? Which ones? I will keep trying.

Thanks for your help. I was about to give up.

Much appreciated

Gordon.

Gordo,
I can't think of anything else-----
If you have done all of the above, it should work ?
Ron Rich

Ron, Got it working, just required further adjustment.

Also, in the start of this post I was asking about the 'mystery wire' attached to the timing relay.

I have found a photo (on the net) that shows a capacitor attached to both sides of the timing relay. This is the mystery wire.

Mine does not have this cap. Is it necessary? What size cap is it?

Regards

Gordon.

Gordo,
I axked you TWICE, if you had changed that cap--???
Yes--it controls the timing of the relay--no wonder you could not get it to operate correctly.
Please re-read the old posts here--
Ron Rich