The jukebox gods hate me... (Rowe MM-6 Rebuild)

MattTech wrote:That "trick" of lining the platter with "tape" is SUCH a lame azzed fix, and people who do that should be horsewhipped.
Do the job right, or let a pro do it.

I'd had to scrape dried old duct tape off platter rims because of that practice, and cursed up a storm doing it.
It's not a "fix" - it's crap.

Sorry you feel that way. Two motors, one runs slower than the other, and a 'rebuild' didn't fix either. If you know some 'magic sauce' to spin the motor up faster, I'd be willing to take any advice. With folks charging $65-$100 for a motor, I'm NOT going to go out and purchase 100 of them hoping to find one that spins up.

Simply "oiling" the motor is really not enough.
These items are decades old, and so is the residue from "old oil".
It turns gummy, and mere re-oiling doesn't cure sluggish speed problems.

The sintered (porous) bearings are now laden with this "gummy" residue, and the fresh oil cannot "wick" into the bearings to provide the proper lubrication and friction-free properties to allow the motor to reach "full speed".
Replacement motors are old as well, and will suffer from the same issues.

The ONLY way to effectively "restore" a motor like this is to completely flush out all that gummy crap.
An overnight soak in solvent of the bearings starts the process.
The felt oil pads will ooze lots of old oil out.
But the sintered bearings need a bit more.
A soldering iron's tip inserted in the bearing will heat it and cause the old oil to visibly "bubble out" of the pores, then flushing of the bearings with solvent to wash it away.
This may take several "tries" to remove all the sludge - but it's the only way.
The shaft itself must be free of buildup too.
Once all the old sludge is gone, a good saturation of the bearings and oil-retaining felt pads with new oil is in order.
Non detergent oil is best.
Once re-assembled, the shaft can be "tapped" with a small mallet or screwdriver handle to "center" the bearings.
A quick "spin" with the fingers - the rotor/shaft should spin free for a few seconds.

MattTech wrote:Simply "oiling" the motor is really not enough.
These items are decades old, and so is the residue from "old oil".
It turns gummy, and mere re-oiling doesn't cure sluggish speed problems.

Thanks for the info. I'll save this for next time I get the motor out. Note that, as I mentioned earlier - I did NOT simply 're-oil' them. I took them apart, and let them sit for 4 and a half minutes in a supersonic cleaner. The solution was horrible when they came out. After reassembly, giving the shaft a twirl would let it spin for about 5-6 seconds. It floated rather well!

I saved your notes into my folder for future reference, thanks!
-Mike

Mike, did you, at some point, work at a radio station in the vinyl and cart era?

Wrapping editing tape around the inside of the old, rim drive QRX-Gates turntables was commonly use to make them run fast and pitch up the music against the competition.

A similar technique was used to speed up cart machines. There that tape was wrapped around the capstan.

Those practices continue today with adjustable CD and automation systems -they just aren't as gross as back then.

Rob

This will be a first for once I agree with Matt, do the job right.

That bottom motor plate you have fitted if you have not flushed that bottom bearing you will have issues.
On striping these motor down we first check for any wear on the upper bearing, you should get up and down movement on the motor shaft but there should be no sideways or back & forth movement. On striping the motor down check both end of the motor shaft, if there is wear it will be obvious, check the small fan on the upper shaft, these tend to come loose so it may need sticking down.

It is easy to lube the upper plate, the bottom one takes more work, I would put it in that sonic cleaner of yours. I just clean them out with a Q tip and spirit, the great thing about bars was they always had an ample supply of Gin which is far better for cheaning machine parts than for drinking.

To test to see if the linkage and idler wheel are working mechanically, put a record in play, grip the edge of the record between your finger & thumb, if the turntable keeps turning under the record with no appreciable loss of speed then mechanically it is fine, if it slows down or stops then there is an issue with the idler wheel.

In the past we have seen all of the botches, tape on the motor shaft, scoring on the inside lip of turntable and all of the spring so called fixes that basically do nothing to help.

Keep up showing us the pictures and I am sure if we see any problems we can let you know.

Regards
Alan

Alan Hood
ami-man
UK

Rob-NYC wrote:Mike, did you, at some point, work at a radio station in the vinyl and cart era?

Wrapping editing tape around the inside of the old, rim drive QRX-Gates turntables was commonly use to make them run fast and pitch up the music against the competition.
A similar technique was used to speed up cart machines. There that tape was wrapped around the capstan.
Those practices continue today with adjustable CD and automation systems -they just aren't as gross as back then.

Actually, yes. Was a DJ for 103.9 The Eagle in Colorado Springs way back when. (No longer on air.) When I started, the station was just shutting down it's turntables (which were modified to run faster - not sure of the brand) to Denon CD players. These players also had a pitch adjust that was set +3%. When I left, they were transferring everything to PC to be automated. We played rock (and classic rock), and I've heard them all SO MUCH that now when I hear one played at normal speed, it sounds.. wrong.

ami-man wrote:This will be a first for once I agree with Matt, do the job right.

That bottom motor plate you have fitted if you have not flushed that bottom bearing you will have issues.
On striping these motor down we first check for any wear on the upper bearing, you should get up and down movement on the motor shaft but there should be no sideways or back & forth movement. On striping the motor down check both end of the motor shaft, if there is wear it will be obvious, check the small fan on the upper shaft, these tend to come loose so it may need sticking down.

It is easy to lube the upper plate, the bottom one takes more work, I would put it in that sonic cleaner of yours. I just clean them out with a Q tip and spirit, the great thing about bars was they always had an ample supply of Gin which is far better for cheaning machine parts than for drinking.

To test to see if the linkage and idler wheel are working mechanically, put a record in play, grip the edge of the record between your finger & thumb, if the turntable keeps turning under the record with no appreciable loss of speed then mechanically it is fine, if it slows down or stops then there is an issue with the idler wheel.

In the past we have seen all of the botches, tape on the motor shaft, scoring on the inside lip of turntable and all of the spring so called fixes that basically do nothing to help.

To address some of the things you mention and ask questions (I also copied your text and added it to my file) -

1. I'm assuming you mean vertical movement while the top and bottom plates are installed and bolted down? (Otherwise, well, there's plenty of upward movement..!) This checked out on both motors - no noticeable sideways movement.
2. There wasn't any noticable ear on either end of the shaft, as far as I can remember, but I also wasn't looking closely.
3. The fans on one WERE lose. Both upper and lower. I used a drop of super-glue to hold them back down. Likely it won't last, but - any recommended way to re-attach them?
4. When I did the one motor in the cleaner, the bottom bearing moved around freely afterwards. I did not even notice until I went to reassemble the motor and could not get the shaft dropped down far enough. Eventually I realized it wasn't lined up and used a small screwdriver to get it vertical, and then the shaft dropped right in with a little wiggling. Is this normal? Should the bearing be loose enough to float freely?
5. The 'new' motor had a small orange fiber sleeve around the top. It seemed to slide smoothly around the shaft and fit between the fan piece and the top plate/bearing. The 'old' motor did not have this sleeve. Thoughts?
6. Both motors have a noticeable irregularity in the shaft, right at the point where the idler wheel runs against it at 45rpm. I studied them very carefully under bright light, and it looks like a casting seam honestly, but I'm not 100% on that.
7. Turntable stregnth - holding the record - is fine. It takes a lot more force than just holding the record still to slow down the turntable.

Could AC line power affect the turntable motor? If so, by how much?

I will likely come back to the motor, after I clean up everything else. I didn't get anything else done last night, I had to take the transfer arm gears into a jar of mineral spirits and shake them up, as the old grimy grease was STILL caked on.

Hey guys -
Okay, now I really am stuck. Have a question for any of you 1100 Mech experts..

This part right here:


What size is the friggin' set-screws? My smallest allen wrench (1/16th) didn't fit, so I purposefully went out and bought a set with the smallest size I could find - 1/20th - and it was STILL too large. I see smaller ones online, but before I went ahead and paid $.50 for a tool + $6 s+h, figured I'd ask here to double-check.

And see all the dirty mangy grease on there? That's AFTER I wiped with down with several cloths. The shaft is so gunked up that it's impossible to turn with just your hand on the shaft..

(I also renamed the thread to better describe the purpose..!)

Didja try looking at the parts book--this looks like a "roll pin", not an Allen screw, to me ?? Does it have a hole on the opposite side ? If so, it most likely is a roll pin--if so, you will need to purchase the correct size, "roll pin punch", which should be noted in the parts book---
Ron Rich

That is a roll pin. Do NOT try to remove it, you risk destroying the nylon bearing.

That mech is filthy and the piecemeal methods take so much more time than just doing it right -all at once.
Mt approach:
Remove T-T motor.
Remove search unit and stopping switch assemblies.
Remove magazine& belt.

Bathe mech in an emulsifier (as I've mentioned, I use diluted floor stripper) applied with a hand sprayer. You can also use Easy-Off oven cleaner but it doesn't penetrate as well as liquid stripper. Work the emulsifier with a pain brush, rinse in warm water and use a strong blower to get remaining water out of the two mech motors and switch assemblies.
The search and stopping assemblies are washed/dried in similar manner.

The magazine can also be washed, but strong cleaners can remove the divider numbers on it. I carefully spray the stripper on the wire portion and use only dishwasher soap in the plastic dividers.

I don't mean to be overly critical, but half-assing the cleaning process takes much longer and never gets things as clean as they should be. Over zealous dissembling just adds more risk of damage and reassembly errors.

Even after blow-drying allow at least a day for coils to dry and remember to relube all motors and gears before powering.

Rob-NYC

Hi Mike,

The gear you showed in your picture is the Camshaft Gear (part number 200-14175) looking at the amount of grease that was put on this more than likely it will have worn the Segment Gear and Shaft Assembly that it meshes with (part number 201-10800) .
I suggest that you remove the Gear, Trunnion and Cam Gear (part number 400-05014) from the other end of the shaft, it looks like you have already removed the tone arm cam.
You need to remove the pin from the camshaft gear using a suitable punch, you only need to punch it out so it is clear of the shaft, you can then remove the shaft (Trunion Drive Shaft part number 200-10791).

Remove all of the above parts from the mechanism and check for wear, if there is wear especially to the cast gears replace them.

Regards
Alan

Alan Hood
ami-man
UK

Ron Rich wrote:Didja try looking at the parts book--this looks like a "roll pin", not an Allen screw, to me ?? Does it have a hole on the opposite side ? If so, it most likely is a roll pin--if so, you will need to purchase the correct size, "roll pin punch", which should be noted in the parts book---
Ron Rich

Rob-NYC wrote:That is a roll pin. Do NOT try to remove it, you risk destroying the nylon bearing.

You guys have GOT to be kidding. Everything else has a set screw - including the arm transfer gear. Without loosening this pictured gear, the shaft can't be removed and cleaned. (And, I literally need only 1mm more - I measured it - to get the arm transfer gear off the end of the shaft.

I'm not touching roll-pins. I've tried in the past, and there is something mentally wrong with me (hah!), as I've never had ANY luck getting them out (or installing new ones)..

ami-man wrote:The gear you showed in your picture is the Camshaft Gear (part number 200-14175) looking at the amount of grease that was put on this more than likely it will have worn the Segment Gear and Shaft Assembly that it meshes with (part number 201-10800) .
I suggest that you remove the Gear, Trunnion and Cam Gear (part number 400-05014) from the other end of the shaft, it looks like you have already removed the tone arm cam.
You need to remove the pin from the camshaft gear using a suitable punch, you only need to punch it out so it is clear of the shaft, you can then remove the shaft (Trunion Drive Shaft part number 200-10791).

I don't have my manual at work with me (which is a mistake, since I've needed it for reference a few times now!) But I believe I got everything off save for the end gear (Trunnion gear?), that performs the lifting and gripping of the record. It was apparently installed at the factory in such a way that the camshaft gear must not have been pinned down before the transfer arm gears were put on.

On the plus side - none of the other gears are worn- as far as I can tell. I've given all a good cleaning, got all the old grease off, and they mesh beautifully.

Rob-NYC wrote:That mech is filthy and the piecemeal methods take so much more time than just doing it right -all at once.
[...]
Bathe mech in an emulsifier (as I've mentioned, I use diluted floor stripper) applied with a hand sprayer. You can also use Easy-Off oven cleaner but it doesn't penetrate as well as liquid stripper. Work the emulsifier with a pain brush, rinse in warm water and use a strong blower to get remaining water out of the two mech motors and switch assemblies.
The search and stopping assemblies are washed/dried in similar manner.

I don't mean to be overly critical, but half-assing the cleaning process takes much longer and never gets things as clean as they should be. Over zealous dissembling just adds more risk of damage and reassembly errors.

Even after blow-drying allow at least a day for coils to dry and remember to relube all motors and gears before powering.

Hey Rob - First, no sweat. I'm not taking anything badly. I'm learning (and re-learning from decades ago), and open to all ideas.

And honestly, doing it all at once HAD occurred to me. However, there were a few reasons I did not go that way -
(1) I was not sure how the motors and switches would hold up being doused with water/cleaner. You cleared this up above, good to know. When I cleaned the turntable motors, I took out the magnet coils, and then sonic-cleaned everything else. I hand-cleaned the motor coils and such.
(2) I was looking to run through adjustments in the manual as I took parts off and cleaned them. For me (because I got fat hands!) it's easier getting into some areas with other parts removed.
(3) And the last reason was lack of spendable money when I started this project. (In the middle of a $1200 restoration on a pinball, and then at the beginning of May we lost the refrigerator and oven in a power surge, so savings got taken out for that, and I'm having to rebuild our savings now. It'll help ONCE I GET the insurance money, but.. argh.) Anyways, I don't have a hand sprayer (I'm assuming you're meaning an air-powered gun?) nor anything big enough to house the whole mech.

However - as I mentioned earlier - yes, this mech was horribly dirty. What you see in the pics is AFTER I already wiped it down several times, cutting into what was already there. And if the pinion gear is roll-pin, then I have an important decision to make - Do I:
Get the roll-pin out? You say no, my past experience says no. If I DO, how do I get the new one in? CAN I? Again, past experience is telling me no. If I can't, the mech is garbage. That's a huge risk.
Spray down the whole mech? I can do this, but would need to get some air tools and such, which means that I'm at a stopping point until my boss likes me enough to pay me again. The risk here is spraying something and having it upset the natural order of things. (Loose connections, etc.)



On another, semi-related note - I know we're not supposed to post copyrighted stuff, but is it alright if i take a scan of one page of schematics and make some drawings on it and post that here? There was a hack made to the wiring in my mech, and I can't figure out what the effin' it was for. Would like to post here and see what ya'll think.

--Mike

Edit: Holy cow I was still asleep when I posted. Horrible spelling, I apologize.

Mike,
When you have the funds--invest in a "roll pin punch", of the proper size--it will make removing, and installing them so easy--
As for the "scan"--If you "give credit" and only show a partial page ( the part you question), I think it would be OK--
Ron Rich

Anyways, I don't have a hand sprayer (I'm assuming you're meaning an air-powered gun?) nor anything big enough to house the whole mech.

However - as I mentioned earlier - yes, this mech was horribly dirty. What you see in the pics is AFTER I already wiped it down several times, cutting into what was already there. And if the pinion gear is roll-pin, then I have an important decision to make - Do I:
Get the roll-pin out? You say no, my past experience says no. If I DO, how do I get the new one in? CAN I? Again, past experience is telling me no. If I can't, the mech is garbage. That's a huge risk.
Spray down the whole mech? I can do this, but would need to get some air tools and such, which means that I'm at a stopping point until my boss likes me enough to pay me again. The risk here is spraying something and having it upset the natural order of things.

I apply the soap-emulsifier with just a ordinary plastic spray bottle. An old Windex or similar can be used.

If you are not comfortable with heavy washing the mech, just proceed as you are.

--I see no need to remove that gear. Remove the caked grease and examine the teeth. Unless they are truly worn to the point of breaking off, I'd leave it. Excessive backlash in that whole gear train just causes a bit of sloppiness in the gripper action -mainly it slaps the record down on the table. Wear in the trunnion wave washers causes this as well. ALL of the machines I've owned in the 1100-1200 series do this eventually, it does no harm to mech or records. I can hear the records slapping down on my long-suffering MM-1 hideaways from several feet away.

--Do check for excessive wear on the cam and roller on the gripper motor shaft. I've seen mechs where the roller became jammed and instead of rolling while it lifts the cam, it just slid. The result is a notch in the roller and widening of the cam face opening. This condition requires replacement parts and has to be dealt with.

BTW: Where are you in regards to the amp and preamp?

Rob

Ron Rich wrote:When you have the funds--invest in a "roll pin punch", of the proper size--it will make removing, and installing them so easy--
As for the "scan"--If you "give credit" and only show a partial page ( the part you question), I think it would be OK--

Okay, thanks for the note. Once I get some down-time, I'll put together a small image.

Rob-NYC wrote:I apply the soap-emulsifier with just a ordinary plastic spray bottle. An old Windex or similar can be used.

If you are not comfortable with heavy washing the mech, just proceed as you are.

Oh! That's different entirely. For some reason when you first were talking about it, I thought you meant like a hand, air-pressure sprayer, not a squeeze-bottle.

Any specific emulsifier you recommend (I'd like to go with the softer approach, to avoid getting something too caustic or damaging..)? I'll likely go the route of washing the whole thing, then. My biggest concern was getting the nylon washers clean so that the shaft spins freely, honestly.

Rob-NYC wrote:--I see no need to remove that gear. Remove the caked grease and examine the teeth. Unless they are truly worn to the point of breaking off, I'd leave it. Excessive backlash in that whole gear train just causes a bit of sloppiness in the gripper action -mainly it slaps the record down on the table. Wear in the trunnion wave washers causes this as well. ALL of the machines I've owned in the 1100-1200 series do this eventually, it does no harm to mech or records. I can hear the records slapping down on my long-suffering MM-1 hideaways from several feet away.

Interesting you say this. The first MM-6 I owned (my dad owned) back in the late 80's-early 90's slapped records down. I cringe each and every time I see it now, on youtube videos and such. I actually DID have the old juke ruin 4 of my records - put a split in the record from the outer edge inward - in varying lengths. After that, I readjusted everything as per the manual, cleaned it (not as thoroughly as I am on THIS mech!) and after that, it would 'catch' right before the turntable, and then gently put the record down. I was young (middle school, high school age), so that was a HUGE WIN for me. I'm hoping to cure that with this mech as well, again since now I cringe every time I hear that slap.

Rob-NYC wrote:--Do check for excessive wear on the cam and roller on the gripper motor shaft. I've seen mechs where the roller became jammed and instead of rolling while it lifts the cam, it just slid. The result is a notch in the roller and widening of the cam face opening. This condition requires replacement parts and has to be dealt with.

I'll look at this next. The rest of this week in between dinner and sleep, I'll be pulling the mech out and getting ready to take it outside this weekend for the good cleaning. So I'll look at the transfer motor and such then, thanks.

Rob-NYC wrote:BTW: Where are you in regards to the amp and preamp?
Rob

Nowhere, yet. I've been focusing on the mech right now. They both are still in the machine, and have issues (as of last time I was able to play a record) -
- One channel cuts out when it's cold, seems to come back once the amp warms up.
- There's an odd changing squeezing/buzzing sound coming from one or the other channel. It moves, and is present even with the mute relay latched. It's also very soft, so unless you were standing in front of the juke, you wouldn't hear it.
- All the adjustments in the pre-amp need cleaning, as they're scratchier'n hell.

I may actually look into sending the amp (and pre-amp, possibly) out to have someone professionally do it. Sound is important to me, and while I'm not worried I COULD do it, I'm worried that I'll do something WRONG and it'll take even longer for me to fix it.

Hey guys...

Two questions -
First, does anyone know of a suitable repalcement for the rubber pads that the selection coil mounts on? Shot of the ones on mine, that were pretty much toast:

There's five of them, I believe they're the same - four on the bottom for the mounting screws, and one on the edge as a bumper stop. In the manual, it lists them as - 200-14828 Grommet, Rubber.

Second - my manual has a picture of the transfer cam switches, and includes a table of what each switch does. However, the switches aren't labeled:
(Image is a shot of the manual's page, copyright to whomever holds the Rowe/AMI name now..)
Am I correct in assuming that CS1 is in the lower left, with CS2 above it, CS3 top center, CS4 upper right, and CS5 lower right? If not, what's the designations?

Finally - this is what I referenced in a previous post. The mech had a hack done to it. Except that (1) I can' make heads or tails on *why* it would have been necessary, and (2) it was extremely professionally done, having been extremely cleanly *soldered* to the two crimp terminals, and the wire was run through all the wire clamps and sleeves on the mech.
I would have never noticed it if it weren't for the fact that it was done in a non-standard wire, and it the cut in it was visible when I got the juke.

Here's a picture of the schematics showing the area that this jumper wire covered:

The White/Red wire on the top side (W/R) goes up to a diode's cathode side, and then up to the SCAN function of the On/Stop/Scan maintenance switch. The other end? It goes to CS5 (the transfer motor switch), where GND comes in. So, essentially, if I'm reading this right (which I believe I am!), if this wire was connected, it'd short from the +30VDC to ground. And on top of that, the diode checked out fine (slight resistance in one direction, nothing in the other), but the diode is literally three inches from the cam switch - yet the wire was routed all the way under the mech, with the other wires, to the top left to connect up to the scan (stop) switch.

I can NOT figure out why anyone would do this, or why it was necessary, heh.