Seeburg VL200 stops and loads home position record when a selection is made

My Seeburg Vl200 plays great but lately it has started loading the home position record whenever I make a selection, and if the head is scanning when I make a selection, the head stops wherever it is when the selection buttons are pushed and plays the record at that slot. It will properly play the selected record after it is finished playing the wrong record.
I was told this was due to a bad ground but after several hours or trying different fixes, I give up and hope the jukebox pros can help. I hope for a simple or clear procedure for a novice to follow. It does not always make this error which makes trial and error repair very frustrating.
I would appreciate any suggestions to try. I play it a lot but I am tired of pushing the reject button every time I play make a selection.

Defective grounding-returns on the Jones plugs and RCA plug on the pulse amp are the most common reason for this sort of problem. On my commercial machines I have added a ground wire from each Jones plug connected to any nearby chassis screw. Same for the shell of the pulse amp..

Another rare problem is a 12AX7 tube in the pulse amp that has hot spots on it's cathode making it hyper-sensitive. This will often result in a playing record being rejected when a selection is made. This rare condition can afflict any tube including the trip 2050. A problem in the pulse amp can cause these sorts of problems, but if the 047 capacitor is replaced and 5.6 megohm resistor checked, that will usually suffice.

There is a capacitor at the scan assembly under the mech to suppress transients. if original, it should be replaced.

Most important; have the amp and selection receiver been rebuilt in recent years and what service information do you have?

I've had one case where a slightly defective toroid in the memory unit will flip to the selected state when any other of the same letter or number group is selected. In this case an "E0" will occasionally play when another record in the "0" group is selected. To test for this rare possibility: Park the mech at somewhere away from its right end parking stop by tripping the scan roller. Make a selection. If it trips right away you can rule out a tormat defect.

Here are the simplified diagrams for the Write-In and Read-Out ckts:

http://s1192.photobucket.com/user/Rob-N ... ort=2&o=58

http://s1192.photobucket.com/user/Rob-N ... ort=2&o=59

Rob-NYC

Hi,
Before following Rob's excellent advise--I would simply change the 12AX7 and the 2050 tube ! If that still did not solve the problem, I would clean the insulators on the dual Write In contacts inside the DCU. Then if none of the earlier suggestions worked, I would remove the TES. Remove the latch-bar solenoid, and meter(s), wash the whole TES in (sudsy--if you can find it) ammonia, and hot water --rinse/dry totally-re lube it as per the service manual, and you probably won;t have any more problems--Ron Rich

Thanks for the suggestions to try to resolve this. I tried 'used' tubes this morning and had different reactions, for one, with a different 12ax7, the mech would not stop at any selections made. I can try new ones but I will have to purchase them. During this process this morning, the solenoid that is in the scan control assembly started smoking and I think I will now have to replace it. Not sure if it was related to anything I had done as all I did was try different tubes. This new problem initially started this morning when the head would not move unless the service switch was pulled to its outer position (scan, I think) but then for some reason the solenoid started smoking. If it is shot, I will have to replace it and I am not sure how that fits into the original problem. I am guessing it is just a bonus for me to have more fun.
I am having to look up some of the terms you use but I am following the best I can.
I don't know what the insulators are in the dual control relay, I have a manual so I will see if that will tell me as that is a step I can follow and hope for success. I am hoping to clean them as suggested if I can figure out how.
As far as adding the ground from the Jones plug and the RCA plug, maybe I could get some specific instruction on that. My RCA plug has the two wires plus the braided shield. I am guessing I would connect one of these to the chassis but I am not sure. On the Jones plug, would that be the 12 pin plug and where would I run the wire from the chassis to on it for a ground?
Excuse my ignorance of in these discussions and I appreciate your willingness to help and explain.
I very much am glad you guys stopped to help me, thanks, Rob and Ron!

Hi,
Yep--"holding" the service switch in the scan position WILL cause the scan start coil to smoke, as that coil is set up to receive a short pulse only. This is not related to the selection problem--and BTW- it is the Dual PRICING UNIT,insulators, not "relay" that needs cleaning--
I would humbly suggest that, before you do more damage you at least READ the Service Manual. You might also want to purchase a copy of my mechanism guide, as I think it would help you understand "how it works"- ( If you wish to purchase it, please PM me).
Ron Rich

Ron, thanks for trying to help me. I guess the vast difference in our levels is too much. But you gave it a try. I wasn't holding the scan switch when the coil began smoking and I have used these switches on many jukeboxes. Possibly it just reached the end of its life. Just so you don't think I am not doing my homework, I do read the manual also. It is not as easy to understand for all of us. May I kindly suggest that some of us looking for help might find your comments demeaning and offensive.
I don't know what insulators are in the DPU, maybe they are the white spacers between the contact blades. I am just trying to learn to so I can get my juke working again. If I am misusing this forum, I apologize. Please feel okay with ignoring me or removing me.
I really don't want to bother or offend anyone. Thanks for your time.
BTW, I will follow your advice and order the tubes and see what happens, maybe I can insert it without doing too much damage.

Hi,
I never intend to be demeaning nor offensive--Please read "Atten Newbies" above--sorry you took it that way-
Sure, it's possible it just failed, but IMHO highly un-likely--more likely it has been energized for a period of time, longer then inteded--this can be done by the DCU also--
Ron Rich

"Atomic" the smoke you see along with the need to hold the service switch in "scan" tells me that it may be due to arcing contacts on the scan assembly. This can happen due to wear on the roller or simply deformation due to the contacts normally resting held open.

When you are more familiar with the machine the scan unit will need to be unbolted and examined. To do this; bring the mech to the center of the rack. Turn off and unplug the machine. . Remove the two keeper pins, one on each of the rails that the whole mech and magazine rest on. Slide the mechanism assembly toward the front of the machine about 5 inches --take care not to stress the cables from the mech and tormat. Slide something under the mech base casting rear edge to lift it slightly so that the scan unit can be removed. DO NOT use the tormat to lift the mech. Remove the scan assembly by removing three Phillips screws that come up through the base casting. two toward the front and one at the rear. Ease the unit from under the casting toward the rear.

While those coils are not designed for continuous operation, they are fairly rugged and can stay energized for several minutes (at least). They'll overheat, but usually be Ok.

I have to reiterate Ron's comments about learning-before-tinkering and repeat my own caution that the electronic units --must-- be rebuilt before it is safe to work on the machine powered. Seeburg didn't adequately protect their machines with fuses. Coils and transformers are the "fuses of last resort".

The V & VL are among my favorites. I've owned 4 over the years and have three in revenue service plus a VL Hideaway. They are quite reliable, but rebuilding and some modifications are essential.

Rob-NYC

Thanks again, Rob and Ron, for your helpful suggestions. I will take the easy approach and replacing tubes. That coil is burned up too so I will have to fix that problem. The head had just made a pass and stopped after possibly somehow causing the scan switches to lock in the on, if possible, Mostly what I have learned on these machines is perseverance. Maybe I am a bit sensitive as I am frustrated and really don't have the talent or time to learn the intricacies. Of course, it might be faster if I did learn correctly. I will plod along though.
Rob, if you read this, can you explain which of the RCA plug wires I would ground, I assume not the braided coil and not the center wire, and do I simply ground it to a metal screw on the chassis? On the Jones plugs, do you ground them from the clamping screw to the chassis?
Ron, could I ask what the insulators look like in the DPU? I cleaned the contacts with some alcohol on a strip of paper but to no help.
I sincerely appreciate your efforts and will follow through with taking your advice.

That coil is burned up too so I will have to fix that problem. The head had just made a pass and stopped after possibly somehow causing the scan switches to lock in the on, if possible,

As I said, that might not be the case. that coil gets a short pulse from the credit unit (or stepper if a wallbox is used) the "winds" a ratchet which closes two contacts that in-turn power the AC relay in the stepper box. this relay powers the mechanism motor and the high voltages for the amplifier (these voltages are called B+). As the mech passes over the subtract roller on the scan assembly the ratchet unwinds on notch for each pass. After two passes the ratchet opens the two contacts and the AC relay is unpowered and mech and amp are turned-off.

If the contacts on the scan unit don't make good contact they can spark and this will produce a little smoke.

I suspect that is all that is wrong here because if the coil were staying energized the mech would keep scanning due to the ratchet not being allowed to unwind. I am going by your description of events, but this is what I think is happening.

RCA plug: The outer shell is the shield and that is what is to be grounded.

There is no real "talent" needed in learning how to repair these machines. The most important attributes are common sense and patience. I have no formal training in jukebox repair. My background was RCA electronic school and followed by their "five week wonder" course to get a First Class broadcast engineering license. That knowledge of electronics helped with the hobby and business, but i still started at zero when it came to mechanism operation of the various brands.

Get the service manuals. Asses your own abilities at rebuilding the electronics and determine when/if things needs to be turned over to others for specific restoration.

A V or Vl is too valuable to tinker with.

Rob

Ron Rich wrote:Hi,
I never intend to be demeaning nor offensive--Please read "Atten Newbies" above--sorry you took it that way-
Sure, it's possible it just failed, but IMHO highly un-likely--more likely it has been energized for a period of time, longer then inteded--this can be done by the DCU also--
Ron Rich

Ronnie, your input always comes from your extensive experience with jukes, notably the Seeburg line.
While some regard you as a "god" or "guru" with these things, I personally can say that you don't mince words, and your up-front and always enjoyed humor adds a nice personal touch to things.
And besides, your well-deserved reputation will speak for itself.

Hi Mattie,
Well, thanks for that! I have been known to put my foot in my mouth un-intentionally many times, even though I do try to avoid it--Language is a "funny thing"--One can say ( write, or, READ !), something that another person takes totally different, then the originator intended. When my late friend Tony Miller, and I were writing our "Seeburg guides", that was often discussed between us--He would write something, and I would review it, or vise versa, trying to misinterpret it, and clarify it !
Ron Rich

Here is the latest update. Both of the fellows who offered suggestions mentioned the 12AX7 tube might be the problem so I ordered a new 12AX7 tube. This corrected most of my problems and my jukebox is going again. To be specific, the head no longer stops when a selection is made. That problem seems to be completely fixed. I have a small problem with the head playing the home position slot record if the jukebox is cold. By that I mean that if the jukebox has not been played in awhile, then when a selection is made the first time, it will load the home position record. After the initial error, it selects properly , even from the home position and it will perform properly until it has been allowed to 'cool' down. I appreciate the tips and will see how it performs in the next few days and if there is a change, I will update again. Great to have volunteers who will take their time to help strangers.

My guess is the Write-in contact insulators in the DPU are dirty and allow some WI cap leakage, when cold. It wipes that clean for awhile, and will not cause a spike, as such. Clean the two (sets) of contact INSULATORS, with a pencil erasure. Also, it may be time to re-build the TSR -- at LEAST, a caps/resistor/ (change the diode), value check ! You might also see if the .01 (I think--see the Service Manual, if missing, for size) cap, is in place in the scan control unit--if missing, will also cause "spikes". Ron Rich