Phonoland

Hey,

I am a design student and I have a project on re-designing the classic Berliner Gramophone. I have a few questions about gramophones that I would really appreciate if you could help me with your expertise in this area.

1. I have researched so far that the shape and material of the horn can have an effect on the tone of the music, but I don't know exactly what does what? For example (incorrect examples): longer horns produce more volume; wider horns produce more lower end (bass) tones within in the sound; a brass horn works better than a steel horn etc. Or maybe there an optimum shape and material you find works best for you?

2. If a modernised version of the gramophone was made, would you like it to stay true to its analogue way of working even if it meant producing a lesser quality of sound, or would you not mind if it worked similar to a vinyl player using an amplifier for the sound and the horn became only a decorative part of the player.

3. What makes your favourite gramophone your favourite? e.g. Is it the choice of materials (please state what material you like -wood, metal-plastic)? Craftmanship? Age of Gramophone? The story of it? The Quality? The sound it produces?

4. Is there anything you would really, really hate done to a re-design of a gramophone?

Thank you so much for your help! It is really appreciated, will post my progress for anyone curious what its like to design a new gramophone.

Fraser

Hi Fraser

That sounds like a very fun project, but as for improving the original design, it helps to know what has been done, to date.

The original Berliner Gramophone (actually, the "Improved Gramophone" model), as used in the "His Master's Voice" painting and on Gramophone and Victor logos, labels, etc., was very crude compared to the models that followed. I don't know how much research you've done, but there is quite a bit available on the internet and in books, though many of them are now out of print, describing the evolution of the all-acoustic gramophone from its introduction through its perfection.

Basically, there were two eras during which the all-acoustic gramophone (based on Berliner's invention) was produced. The first, from it's inception in the mid/late 1800s, through the mid-1920s, relied largely on "empirical" science (trial and error) for both the design of gramophones, as well as enhancements to the recording process. It was during this period that most gramophone records were mechanically (or acoustically) recorded --

SEE:
http://www.charm.rhul.ac.uk/history/p20_4_1.html
http://gasdisc.oakapplepress.com/narracou-tech.htm

The second era began in 1925, when electrically recorded records and improved gramophones designed to play them with greater fidelity than the older models hit the market. (While electrically amplified models were also introduced at this time, all-acoustic gramophones remained popular for home use until the end of the 1920s, in the US, and later on, overseas.) Many of the new models, unlike the pre-1925 gramophones, were developed using modern scientific methods. Some, such as the Orthophonic Victrola, were designed on paper first, based on mathematical computations, before the prototypes were produced --

SEE:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_Or ... c_Victrola
http://www.stokowski.org/Development_of ... ording.htm
http://www.aes.org/aeshc/docs/recording ... ortho.html

While the Orthophonic Victrola, described in the references above, represented the highest achievement in all-acoustic sound reproduction in the United States, designers in the UK--not affiliated with the Victor Talking Machine Co. or The Gramophone Company, Ltd., which adopted the system introduced by Victor--came out with a "no compromises" version that did not involve folding the requisite exponential horn.

SEE:
https://www.google.com/search?as_q=%22E ... as_rights=
https://www.google.com/search?as_q=%22E ... mophone%22

The larger Ginn and EMG models were equipped with extremely large exponential papier mache horns, coupled with properly designed tonearms and reproducers (sound boxes) that could reproduce nearly the full range of sound captured on the 78s recorded at the time. I've listened to one in person and the fidelity is astounding--thundering bass, strong mid-range, and crisp treble. There are a number of videos on Youtube showing these gramophones in action, for instance -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7e6RSZdSi8 .

I'd say, if you want to perfect the gramophone, the EMG/Ginn design would be a good starting place, perhaps one incorporating a lighter weight sound box equipped with a more sensitive diaphragm, and a lightweight exponential horn that is rigid enough to resist sympathetic vibrations, which can add distortion.

As for a modern version of the original Berliner model, one was produced a few years ago -- The Gakken Gramophone -- http://www.amazon.com/Gakken-Windup-Pre ... B0013L5JPQ or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzEiqDqgP08 -- which was more of a toy than anything else.

Along this line, a "reproduction" gramophone incorporating a horn (for show) was produced in the late 1950s -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwCZ-4Yovv4 There was also a contemporary version (poorly made in China, with all plastic "innards") which was sold a few years ago. Here's one of them -- http://www.amazon.com/Pyle-Home-PTCDS3U ... B004US0URQ

Hopefully, more will chime in.

Good luck with your project.

Joe

I see my above post did not address your specific questions regarding the form/function of the horn, etc. Here are a few thoughts:


1. I have researched so far that the shape and material of the horn can have an effect on the tone of the music, but I don't know exactly what does what? For example (incorrect examples): longer horns produce more volume; wider horns produce more lower end (bass) tones within in the sound; a brass horn works better than a steel horn etc. Or maybe there an optimum shape and material you find works best for you?

As I indicated, above, the optimum shape for a gramophone horn--the exponential style horn (http://www.dictionary.com/browse/exponential-horn)--was worked out over 90 years ago, and adopted by all of the major gramophone manufacturers. In order to produce a wide range of sound, the horn must be quite long with a wide mouth (front opening). To minimize distortion, reflection, resonance, etc., the taper of the horn should be gradual--according to a mathematical constant. Along this line, the tonearm functions as an extension of the horn, and therefore must follow the same exponential taper. There's a pretty good discussion about this on The Talking Machine Forum, that appeared several years ago, which I participated in under another name -- http://forum.talkingmachine.info/viewto ... f=2&t=7539

As for the type of material used, it's true that prior to 1925, various gramophone manufacturers preached the superiority of using "instrumental brass," or other materials, for their gramophone horns, but this was debunked when "real science" entered the design. Ideally, a gramophone horn should be smooth, and rigid enough to NOT vibrate in sympathy with the sound coming from it's mouth. There should also be as few bends in the chamber as possible, which is one of the criticisms of the Victor Orthophonic models which used a folded exponential horn. -- http://www.victor-victrola.com/Victrola%20Horns.htm (Also, see -- http://www.victor-victrola.com/Basics%2 ... ograph.htm -- for more background information.)


2. If a modernized version of the gramophone was made, would you like it to stay true to its analogue way of working even if it meant producing a lesser quality of sound, or would you not mind if it worked similar to a vinyl player using an amplifier for the sound and the horn became only a decorative part of the player.

Combination systems are available today, which use high quality turntables to play lps (never designed for acoustic playback) coupled with amplifiers and horn speakers (For instance: http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/Sho ... 5837#15837 ) Personally, I'd sacrifice some range to have an all acoustic system.

3. What makes your favourite gramophone your favourite? e.g. Is it the choice of materials (please state what material you like -wood, metal-plastic)? Craftmanship? Age of Gramophone? The story of it? The Quality? The sound it produces?

I'm obviously most interested in sound quality, providing the gramophone is an all acoustic system, preferably with a spring motor. I'd love to own an EMG or Ginn model, but good examples are now in the $10,000 range, which is too steep for me. I used to own an Orthophonic Victrola Credenza, but sold it about 18 years ago. I now have an Orthophonic Victrola 4-40, which still pumps out a strong mid-range and provides more than a hint of bass (http://www.victor-victrola.com/4-40.htm) It's fitted with a 4&1/2 foot exponential horn, based on my measurements. When my ship comes in, I'd like to have another Credenza--or any of the larger HMV Exponential horn gramophones, though they do not come up for sale very often in the US.

For a new built model--one with an outside horn--I'd prefer an oak cabinet, and a horn made out of some type of light weight resin, since a very large horn would be mandated. (Interestingly, reproduction EMG type horns constructed out of fiberglass are/were made to replace damaged original papier mache horns.)

4. Is there anything you would really, really hate done to a re-design of a gramophone?

I can't think of anything specific. But, as noted above, I think a good starting place to redesigning an acoustic gramophone is to become familiar with just how far the technology progressed--before making any enhancements.

Again,
Good luck with your project.

Joe

Wow! This is some great information Joe!

Really interesting to see these variety of gramophones and the evolution of different horns and advancements. Thank you so much for your help! Really great to see you own personal opinions on the design of the gramophone too. I'll post some updates over the next few weeks of my design process and hopefully get a nice video of a working prototype around June.

Once again thank you for your help!

Fraser

Hi Fraser:

Many thanks for your reply. Looking over the entire post string, I see that one item has been neglected, the most important one, which is the reproducer or sound box. In the design of the Orthophonic Victrola, for instance, the sound box WAS the reproduction system, with the horn (including the tonearm) functioning as a secondary transformer.

There's a brief primer on the role of the sound box here -- http://www.gracyk.com/reproducer.shtml

Ideally, the sound box should be as lightweight as possible, yet exert enough pressure onto the record to hold the needle in the groove. The diaphragm should be sensitive enough to respond to all vibrations caused by the movement of the needle-bar. While the improved gramophones were fitted with diaphragms made from thin aluminum, some type of plastic material would also work, providing it stands up to the constant back and forth flexing without stretching over time.

By the way, not to throw too much at you, but here's another acoustic phonograph that bypassed the use of a horn and sound box, entirely, the Phonola Dynacoustic phonograph, from about the mid-1940s --

Video -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzU1AX3QOsw
Discussion about: http://forum.talkingmachine.info/viewto ... ?f=2&t=950

The distortion you hear in the video is likely caused by playing the record too fast, and some degradation of the (rubber?) gasket holding the paper-cone speaker in place.

There were earlier designs that used a resonator in place of the conventional equipment, such as the HMV 460 -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnEH4AyqW1M

...and the Pathe' Actuelle -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HMA1ry2oJc

HTH,
Joe