Phonoland

HI,

I have a (small) problem with hooking up a Free Play Adaptor ( http://www.fvstore.com/FREE-PLAY-ADAPTE ... 66143.html) to my Seeburg V200D Juke Box..

Info: Seeburg V200D JukeBox Model (1955)
Seeburg Tormat Receiver : TSR1-L6
Seeburg Dual Credit Unit : DCU1-L6

I own this jukebox already for many years and it has behaved really well (apart from some minor niggles).
I bought the jukebox from a Bar (years ago), where it was used Coin-0perated, as per Seeburg intention.

I kept it in coin operation since then, and it worked as it should (until finally the cash box was entirely full of coins);

Because I could not open the cashbox (lost key), I purchased the above (electronic) Free Play Adapter from a Dutch Dealer (it is suitable for the TSR1-L6, which I have: It is produced by the Company: DJ-Systems Inc, Appleton, WI, USA (and reads: Free Play Credit Unit for Seeburg Model V200 with TSR1-L6). Hence: should be OK.

I have hooked up this adapter (as per instructions) and indeed the Green "MAKE ANY SELECTION" lamp is lit.

However, I have now the problem that this Free Play Adapter does NOT activate the (letter / number board) Latch Solenoid and as such I can not choose a LETTER, because the solenoid is not energized and does not latch (which it hitherto did, using the DCU1-L6).

However when I push any LETTER and NUMBER button SIMULTANEOUSLY, the Juke Box makes its çorrect selections, counts down properly and finally stops, as it should. As such, I therefore have not a too big problem.

The only beauty flaw is that if you do not keep the buttons ON long enough, it has not enough time to "Write In" the selection (you have to wait for a split second until the Timing Relay has clicked, as well).

(Note that with the regular DCU1-L6 Dual Credit Unit (once I have obtained credits by insering (Dutch) quarters or dimes), the Latch solenoid is operated ONCE the Letter button is pushed (and once again released AFTER the Number button has been selected).

I was told by the Dutch dealer from who(m), I bought the Free Play Adapter, that my Dutch (1960's USA Import) V200D jukebox had been modified somewhere in its life (such that the latch solenoid was NOT initially energized, once a coin had been dropped, because this has resulted in overheated solenoids : even resulting in a burned down house in NL.!).
Therefore, all Dutch Seeburg V200 jukeboxes had to be modified (and the guy said there was even an official recall/modification for these series by Seeburg).
(Typically, the Dutch got the 2nd hand Jukeboxes from the USA ( Mine is from Granite: Bernard Muchnick Music Machines)).


Therefore, I'm now curious HOW these juke boxes were modified such that the Latch Solenoid was was only energized AFTER a LETTER had been selected. (Of course, if there were no credits left, it was not possible to Latch the Letter and make any selection, as it should).

I understand from the Dutch Dealer that the initial Seeburg design was such that the Latch Solenoid, was aways ON, as long as there were Credits left. (and as such it was a potential fire threat due to an overheated / burned latch solenoid if it took too long to spend all the credits).

Note that the DCU1-L6 Credit Unit adds and subtracts as it should (pricing was: 3 SINGLE Plays for a Quarter, 1 Single Play for a Dime, 2 EP's for a Quarter, one EP for 15 Cents). This still works still as it should.


My question now is : How was the Latch Bar Solenoid Operation for this Seeburg V200D modified?

===
BTW: I have the Service and Troubleshooting Manual (AMR R263).

From this manual (page 139 : Timing Relay & Latch Bar Solenoid Picture diagram V-200), it seems that the latch solenoid gets power (25V AC) via 2 potential paths:

1) Via Contact X, (NC) (in the DCU1-L6) and then via either Contact N or M (also in the DCU-1-L6)
2) Via Contact X, (NC) (in the DCU1-L6) and then via Contact c-f in the DCU1-L6 (which is ON for 2 or more credits).

The way I see this, that indeed (once you have at least 2 credits), the latch Solenoid stays energized (and can catch fire if you wait too long!!).

Could one of you folks tell me how to reverse the 1960's mod?
(BTW In the meantime I have opened the cashbox from the backside, 16 screws (and I have now 1/2 of a bucket full of Dimes and Quarters, but I would like to keep using the Free Play Adapter, but without having to push two buttons (if it is a small mod; otherwise I will leave it as it is).

Thanks for the help!!

Keep on Jukin'.!

Mart from Holland

Hi Martin,
In using the Free Play Adapter (FPA), are you totally removing the DCU ? If not, you should do so.
The FPA is designed to lock the keyboard (ES) when one button is pushed--either a number or letter should do this. It should hold the first button for 35-45 seconds, unless a second button is pushed, at which time, both should pop back out. If this is not happening, and the FPA is plugged in correctly,
check pins 1 and 6, on the plug from the ES to FPA, with a meter--I am guessing that you will find a "short" somewhere, in the plug, or wiring, to the ES. If not there, check the "start/hold" switches on the ES for added "jumpers"-- Ron Rich

Hi Ron,

Thanks for the quick answer (BTW I have just discovered your websites and books, so some more reading is in order).

To your questions:

1)
Yes, I removed the DCU1-L6 completey from the system (the hook up of FPA is quite idiot proof: 12 pin Loctal plug from Mechanism into ditto socket of FPA and 8 pin Loctal plug from FPA into ditto socket (chassis) from TSR1-L6.
2)
I indeed understood that the FPA should operate the keyboard as you describe (but at present it does not, (latch solenoid does not work) presumably because the wiring was changed in the 60's.
3) I'm going to check for the short between pin 1 & 6 of the 12 Pin plug from the ES (or jumpered start/hold switches on the ES). I will study & try to understand the schematic.

Many thanks for your help!!.

BTW.

I was told that all early V-200 's were also modified to make their memory handling more reliable.

My jukebox still has a 2D21 "Trip" and a 2D21 "Write in" thyratron (but no "Read out" thyratron ; socket empty).
(Also no Pulser thyratron for the Wallbox, but that's because in NL hardly any wall boxes were used, compared to the States.

Do you have a schematic of this mod?? (seems a hybrid between the TSR1-L6 and the later TSR3L6 schematic).

Best regards,

Martin

Hi Martin,
Could you do me a favor--? You're the 4th or 5th person in the last month or so, to tell me he found my website--Only one problem with that,--I did not know I had a website ! Can you tell me where you found it ? " Guides", I plead guilty, as I did write two--
1.-2.) "Idiot proof" --must be lotsa them out there, as I am asked quite often as to how to plug in a FPA ! The "100 Pin-bank" models must plug in in series with the existing pricing unit. Later models, the original PU must be removed.
3.) When I wrote that, I was sure it was pins 1 and 6--now I'm questioning that--might be 1 and 8 ?
Last of the V's were factory modified. Seeburg offered a "low cost kit" to up grade all V's previously sold. The kit consisted of a re-wiring harness for the DCU, a choke, and re-wiring instructions for the detent switch on the mechanism. A totally new TSR (3) was also included in the kit. V's that were updated, were supposed to be marked with a "X" on the ID tag.
Your "hybird", I would guess, is a local change made there--I have never seen such a TSR--
Ron Rich

"Mart" if you, or any other reader is interested in how a V is converted to VL using a TSR-3 these schematics are what I've used since 1984:

http://i1192.photobucket.com/albums/aa3 ... a39a7e.jpg -Write-in

http://s1192.photobucket.com/user/Rob-N ... sort=3&o=1 -Read-out

While no additional wires are needed in the mechanism harness (only slight reassignment) I did have to replace the plug and add another wire to convert the original DCU credit unit. The difference here is that the original scheme just used the write-in contacts to ground the thyratron grid. On the direct system the write-in pulse actually passes through the credit unit as shown on the schematic.

As for simply eliminating the readout 2d21, that is pretty simple, the voltage is not as critical as the write-in. You can simply copy that part of the TSR-3 ckt bearing in mind that there MUST be a current limiting resistor as shown there. the voltage is not really critical, but somewhere near the 300VDC is a good idea to help overcome resistance buildup from dirt and plunger wear.

My first experiment with this actually used a DC relay (!) to replace the tube. That actually worked and you can get away with it on those old, slow scanning machines....But really....

Rob/NYC

Hi Ron & Rob NYC,

Many thanks for the help and all the info supplied!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
@ Ron

I was wrong.
It was actually not your website but that of Tony Miller.

http://www.west.net/~jay/fmillera/fmillera/books.htm

He refers to your books:

Below are listed several books available for Seeburg jukes. Most were written by me, but there are a couple authored by Ron Rich, Seeburg repairman extraordinaire.

+++++++++++++++

Ron Rich's Latest

Ron Rich's Seeburg Mechanism Guide

62 pages, 32 illustrations. Price: USD $24.95 plus USD $5.00 shipping*

Jukeboxes covered: All Seeburg vertical play (all coin-op machines on this site except the M100A)

From Ron Rich is his Seeburg Mechanism Guide. Packed into 62 pages of you-can-only-find-it-here information is a complete step-by-step description of the mechanical and electrical operation of all 7 inch 45/33 RPM mechanisms, starting with the M100B of 1950 all the way up to the last vinyl mechanism, used in the SMC3 of 1984. There is stuff in here you will absolutely have to know if you are going to wash your mech, remove the clutch, or remove the pickup arm frame. Don't even think of moving your machine until you've read the 'Transporting Your Jukebox' chapter! Also, lubrication guidelines, including places your mech needs lubrication that isn't in the charts. Includes five pages of detailed troubleshooting information, gathered from 40 (yes, forty, even though Ron doesn't look a day over 21!) years of experience working with these machines. Includes 32 illustrations, lubrication charts, representative schematics of each major mechanism modification, even a complete list of all vertical-play mechanisms built by Seeburg, along with pickup and stylus data

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
@ ROB NYC

Thanks for the schematics.
Since the Read Out 2D21 Thyratron is missing in my V200, I guess the local Dutch Service guys have only converted the Read Out Circuit as in the TSR3-L6.
I was told by a local Service Technician that the mod was needed because the system did not work properly if there was condensation (which happened in our winters in a non heated (during the nite) Cafe.
I guess it was no problem in California or Arizona and therefore the initial design flaw must have slipped through (after all the concept was quite revolutionary at the time).

Thanks again and many thanks for the help.

Martin

Hi Martin,
Thanks--Tony passed away several years ago--he was a great friend, and is missed by all who knew him! Ron Rich

Since the Read Out 2D21 Thyratron is missing in my V200, I guess the local Dutch Service guys have only converted the Read Out Circuit as in the TSR3-L6.
I was told by a local Service Technician that the mod was needed because the system did not work properly if there was condensation (which happened in our winters in a non heated (during the nite) Cafe.
I guess it was no problem in California or Arizona and therefore the initial design flaw must have slipped through (after all the concept was quite revolutionary at the time).

Martin, as I was told decades ago, the real problem was the 2D21 reliability. A tube that must conduct every time the mech interrogates a Tormat rivet will wear out relatively fast.

There were a LOT of 2050s as military surplus after both WW-2 and Korea and in fact they were in use right through the early 1990s in certain military and aviation equipment.

At the time when the Tormat was introduced it was so revolutionary in the minds of operators that any flaw in the design was amplified by human nature. I expect that after the initial problems became apparent Seeburg engineers felt that in addition to eliminating a tube it was also good marketing to revert to the older type that was familiar in stepper service -the 2050.

I remember a large operator named Mike Munves telling me in late 1969 that they hated the Tormat and much preferred the old pins and levers. At that point i was in private school and it's only good attribute was having a Seeburg V in it's playroom/auditorium. Munves told me that "those are terrible, awful machines" but that if he finds one in storage I could have it for $25. I ended up getting an L-100.

BTW: It should be a fairly straight-forward mod to eliminate the write-in tube using a diode-resistor and relay along with a minor change in wiring. With only slightly more effort you could use an SCR and eliminate the relay.

Rob

Rob,
"--must conduct--every time---" ? --I don't think so ??
Main "read-out" problem with them was the "W" contacts. Once jumped as per instructions, in Service Manual, they are as reliable as the 2050 based phono's, IMHO.
Ron Rich

Ron, I believe you are confusing the readout thyratron with the trip one.

Just as current flows at each toroid interrogation on the direct system, so too it flowed through the tube system. I don't really see why it was designed that way...it was so much easier to use a direct scheme for readout and for that matter write-in. Some engineer got carried away...

I do agree re: the W's. But the thyratrons were unnecessary.

Rob

Rob,
I stand corrected--I were not thinking too well, yesterday Thanks !
Ron Rich

Ron Rich wrote:Rob,
I stand corrected--I were not thinking too well, yesterday Thanks !
Ron Rich

Ron, take care of yourself...you're the "full timer" here. I'm just the dilettante who pops in when interested.

Rob

Rob,
WatzamatterU ?Can't spell "OLD timer"
Ron

Hi,

Tnx again for all the info.
BTW I now found the Website Always Jukin' with all that good literature.
Will order some of those manuals.
An Eyeopener!
I think that in Holland here, most people are not aware yet of this treasure trove.
Will first check with a specialized bookshop here, otherwise I'll order from the USA.

Regards, keep up the good effort to spread all that knowledge!

Martin

Dear Ron,

I found out how my Seeburg V200 was changed here in Holland in the 1960's to avoid a burned Latched Solenoid: it is actually described in Dr. Know-it-All 's Seeburg Reference Manual Vol.2 (2n edition, Page 78):

* Cut the wire at the zero connection of the Latch solenoid (connected to pin 1 of the plug).,
* Connect the zero connection of the latch to the connection between Letter start switch and Number start switch
* Swap the wire from PIN 33 from the Jones Plug with the wire, that goes to the rear section of the number switch bank


The next question now is:
How can I change the wiring in the Free Play Adapter such that the operation of the Adapter is the same as with the DCU1-L6 Credit Unit (i.e Latch Solenoid only activates AFTER a Letter button has been pressed, and is once again released after a number button has been selected.
Maybe the wiring of the plug of the Free Play Adapter can be changed??
(BTW I would like to keep the Juke Box as is, to be able to use the DCU1-L6, in future (quarter/dime operation).

Any ideas??

I have also posted this question to Dr. Know it All:



Dear Dr. Know-it-All, Mr. Harold Hagen,

I own a Seeburg V200 for many years and sofar I did any required repairs using the Seeburg Service Doc's.

I have just purchased your Seeburg Volume 2 Reference Manual (2nd edition) from Stamannn Musikboxen, Germany, and what a Treasure Trove it indeed is!!
These V200 jukeboxes all seem to develop the same problems (e.g faulty cap in pulse amplifier, loss of bass due to faulty squelch switch, Ms etc. etc.,) which I only found after some searching, but which is readily available in your book.
It would have been much easier if I had owned your book before because these faults are so nicely compiled in your work!

Now to my question:
I live in Holland and my V200 (which was imported in the early 1960's from the USA) has been converted such that the Latch Solenoid only is activated once a letter button has been pressed. (Instructions of Fire Department, to avoid burned latch solenoids due to overheating, which is even more important for our 50 Hz power system).
It is an early V200, using the TSR1-L6 Tormat Receiver.
It seems that the above modification was done (in the early 1960's), as described by you on page 78.

I just purchased a Free Play interface box, made in USA (which completely replaces the DCU1-L6 Credit Unit, see http://jukebox-revival.eu/free-playadap ... -v200.html ), but I have now the (small) problem that the letter key is not latched once pushed.
Only halfway after pressing a number key (whilst holding the letter button), the Latch Solenoid is activated and immediately again released after a split second (by the timing relais).
(For the rest the FreePlay Adapter works good (writing in selections, and counting down), so it performs it task largely as intended.

Not latching the letter button, is only a beauty flaw, but I wonder if the free play box could be modified such that the operation of the selection keys is as before i.e. pressing a letter activates the latch solenoid and locks it and pressing a number again releases the latch solenoid, and as such the letter AND number button (after the prescribed time set by the timing relais).

Maybe this could be done by swapping some wires in the plug or socket of the Free Play Adapter??
Any ideas??? BTW, I would like to keep the wiring of the Juke Box, as is.


Thanks again for all your good advice in your Reference Manual..

All the best from Holland!

Martin Bosma