*Solved* Seeburg LPC-480 <sigh> could use a tiny bit of help

Hello, I have recently had the good fortune of acquiring a very decent LPC-480BL.
Upon first startup, it was in "sit & spin" purgatory. With the help of the service manual, and the Ron Rich Mech Guide I was able to clean, lubricate, and adjust my way to getting the machine to properly scan to the correct location and pick up the correct record...progress.

However, I am now at the "scan, detent, clamp, reject, move to next selection" symptom, and am stuck.

Most times the mech will try to play a record once before rejecting and moving on, other times it will load/reject 3 or 4 time before moving on..sometimes twice , etc.

I feel like I am on the verge of getting the jukebox to play selections properly, but am stuck at this (hopefully) last troubleshooting hurdle.

Any suggestions as to which way to go from here would be super helpful, and much appreciated.

Thank you in advance for any and all help!

-Jay

Jay, that is classic "gummy clutch". Lube that clutch carefully first with a light oil (10wt). If that fixes it continue use for some hours and then lube again with 20wt.
When a record loads hold down the manual trip level, release it and see if the record plays. If so, that should confirm the clutch is culprit. If you feel the trip coil pull against your finger (energized) then an electrical problem exists. From your description that is unlikely.

Also, did you by chance adjust the clutch? If so the final adjustment that sets the member at midway during play mode may be set incorrectly causing it to engage the upper linkage.

The clutch takes a pounding in those machines due to the "ten-ton" mech cover, fast scan and having all the scan-transfer cycles occur in one direction. Proper lubrication is --essential-- or you'll have the joy of removing-rebuilding the clutch member.

Rob-NYC (LPC still in commercial service).

Thank you Rob!

I had "cleaned and lubed" the clutch, I used 3 in 1 (electric) motor oil, 20 wt.
Perhaps I wasnt as thorough as I thought.

I did try holding the manual trip down, but the record did not load, nor did I feel any buzzing.

I hadnt made any adjustments to the clutch, perhaps I need to look at that adjustment after I give it another (more thorough) clean and lube.

-Jay

Hi Jay,
Thanks for purchasing the Mech.Guide--glad it was of some help !
Besides what Rob wrote--scroll down on the list of subjects here and read the one on the that SS 160 rejects records before playing.
(Also, when Rob said to hold down on the detent lever, he meant AFTER it has detented for a selection)
Ron Rich

As Ron points out hold the manual trip lever after the mech detents. If the level still pops up, remove the mech plug that goes into the amp. If it now detents-plays normally (it won't trip at end) look for a shorted reject connection. Also check the action of the trip switch as shown in this vid:

http://www.fileconvoy.com/dfl.php?id=ge ... 62d6043ca7

I suspect however that this is still a clutch problem.

Rob

Ron Rich wrote:Hi Jay,
Thanks for purchasing the Mech.Guide--glad it was of some help !

Thank YOU! It is a very big help, I doubt I would have been able to get as far as I did without it.
Having the Mech Guide and sort of "cross referencing" the Seeburg manual along with it makes sense of things that are kind of vague in the manual.

Ron Rich wrote:Besides what Rob wrote--scroll down on the list of subjects here and read the one on the that SS 160 rejects records before playing.

Ok, I took a look at that thread..I unplugged the amp, made the selection and got the exact same results. According to the other post, it is a mechanical issue, correct?

Rob-NYC wrote:As Ron points out hold the manual trip lever after the mech detents. If the level still pops up, remove the mech plug that goes into the amp. If it now detents-plays normally (it won't trip at end) look for a shorted reject connection.

Would this have the same effect as unplugging the amp, as Mr Rich suggested in the other thread?

Rob-NYC wrote: check the action of the trip switch as shown in this vid:

http://www.fileconvoy.com/dfl.php?id=ge ... 62d6043ca7

I suspect however that this is still a clutch problem.

Rob

-I am not so sure the switch on mine behaves in that manner. I will definitely be checking a little later this evening when I get home. Thank you for that!

Gentlemen, Thanks for taking the time out to help me with this, it looks like this "symptom" gets posted a bazillion times on the jukebox forums.

-Jay

[/quote]-I am not so sure the switch on mine behaves in that manner. I will definitely be checking a little later this evening when I get home. Thank you for that!-Jay[/quote]

If you have already tried unplugging the AC input to the amp and gotten the same results, the trip switch depicted in the vid is not likely the cause, but checking only take a second.

I suggest removing the mech plug from the amp because the trip switch circuit completes through a set of contacts on the mute relay. A fault in the trip ckt in the amp could cause this.

The main question remains whether this errant tripping occurs with the solenoid getting energized or if it is just mechanical involving the clutch.

Rob

Rob-NYC wrote:The main question remains whether this errant tripping occurs with the solenoid getting energized or if it is just mechanical involving the clutch.

Rob

Ok, stepping back and taking a breath.
I just got home and decided to try to hold the lever down BEFORE the mech trips, and sure enough, got the "buzzing".
I think I was being timid before, trying not to get zapped by the nearby switches.

I am going to stick my face back in the service manual and Mr Richs mech guide for a bit...

Jay, I need be clear here to avoid giving you extra work.

When the mech trips at a selection and the transfer process begins the trip lever should fall back down to the normal horizontal position.

So, press it down after trip (detent) and see if it tries to pull up again via the solenoid. If the solenoid is being powered you should also hear at least a slight click and see the pin attached to the solenoid that pulls up the lever punch upwards strongly.

Rob

Rob-NYC wrote:... see if it tries to pull up again via the solenoid. If the solenoid is being powered you should also hear at least a slight click and see the pin attached to the solenoid that pulls up the lever punch upwards strongly.

Rob

Thank you for your patience.
I confirmed that the solenoid does indeed try to pull the lever back up, I see the pin definitely punching back upwards when I push down on the lever immediately after the mech trips.

OK, then review the operation of:

Trip switch.

Reject button (if connected).

Relay in amp (remove plug from mech).

The trip switch action being most likely at this point. If the bias spring at the rear of the actuator whisker is too far down it will cause the switch to trip ass soon as the arm begins to follow the record. If the rectangular opening does not completely snap the switch back to it reset position when the arm returns to rest, the switch can snap to trip.

Even on an LPC this is a straight-forward problem.

Rob

Couple of thoughts--
Do NOT attempt to bend the "whisker"--It was case hardened, and will snap, in most cases, if bending is attempted --
Check the TCC "reject terminal strip"--be sure, that if connected, the red wires are not shorted externally, and the rear of the cabinet switch, is open. I would advise that these should be moved to the amplifier, on all LPC and APFEA-1's that have them connected here, as they do tend to touch each other, when connected here----
If a remote reject switch is connected, check that it ( and the wiring) is open--
Ron Rich

Here is what I have tried so far thanks to you guys reccomendations:

1) Unplug mech (mute) plug to amplfier. No change.
2) Check "reject button" connections at tormat control center. Connections not touching, removed terminals and check for proper switch and wiring continuity, all checked out good. Left unconnected and made a selection, no change, still get the scan, trip, load, replace, move on..
3) De-soldered connections at trip switch. No change.

So, I removed the clutch and am going to service it per the Ron Rich Mech Guide. It 'looks' clean and seems to function as it should but I want to completely remove all doubt.

Is there anything else I should be looking at?

Thank you again for all of the help.

-Jay

.

SUCCESS!!!

I tore the clutch all the way down this time, and the pin that the "clutch member" pivots up and down on was all buggered up.

Cleaned and re-lubed with the help of the ron rich mech guide. Got everything back together, checked and re-checked everything, made a selection and finally..... got music playing out of this thing! Everything happens as it should now from start to finish.
Im about as happy as can be right now.

I learned a whole lot about this machine in the process, so I dont feel like any of the troubleshooting was a waste.

The records dont seem to consistently play at 45 rpm, so I ordered a cap kit for the autospeed unit since it is still all original in there.

This jukebox is just too much fun and sounds good.. did I mention Im as happy as can be right now!

Rob-nyc, you were right at the very begining, thanks a ton for all the advice, anD Mr. Rich as well.

Im sure I will be posting more questions as I go along. Will post pictures of her soon.

HiSting,
Glad you "got-it" ! And that you're happy !
One thing about Rob--he, like me is NEVER wrong--but, not always rite, er, write, -ummm--right--
Ron Rich