Gramophone Cinema - 1920's novelty

jakub76 · by **jakub76** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 2:50 pm

I came across this old animation novelty from the 20's, thought people might get a kick out of it. What a great gramophone accessory to own now.

Has anyone got a gramophone doll? Is there any video on the web of one in action? I would be interested to see.
Cheers

Neophone · by **Neophone** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 6:52 pm

Jakub,

WOW! What a fantastic find! Original box, instructions, everything.

You'll have to let us know how well it works.

Regards,
J.

jakub76 · by **jakub76** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:46 am

Unfortunately I didn't buy the item but there are a couploe available on the net for around $200 US if anyone is interested. Too rich for my blood.

Neophone · by **Neophone** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 4:42 am

Jakub,

Sadly I must second that!

Someday my ship will come in...........

and I'll probably be at the air-port.

Regards,
J.

sentjourn · by **sentjourn** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 12:35 am

They have this & several other examples of this type at the Museum of the Moving Image in Queens, New York. It's a great place to visit when your in town.

jakub76 · by **jakub76** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 6:21 am

That's wonderful that your museum has a gramophone cinema. What other discs/pictures are in the collection? Is there a few of Felix? How complicated is the animation? I'd imagine most would be a walking or running loop.
Cheers,
Jakub

STEVE · by **STEVE** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 5:11 pm

You did well to not waste money on this as it is a repro example anyway!

There are thousands of these cheap copies available out there so be careful if you are looking to buy one anytime!

The easiest give away and tell-tale sign is the box. Quite apart from the fact that it looks new you'll also notice how the label has the bottom line of the square missing which would otherwise frame the text? Someone has poorly drawn a line in at the bottom which doesn't meet the two vertical lines or make a neat frame.

The reason for this is because when these were repro'd the name of the original maker had to be removed from the copy lables so there is a piece missing at the bottom of the label. Hence the poor freehand cover up.

And just look at how clean and fresh it all is anyway! If anyone is totally convinced that this is an original item over 80 years old, then perhaps I should offer you all a free Crapophone with each one I sell you!

by **Joe_DS** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 8:48 pm

STEVE wrote:You did well to not waste money on this as it is a repro example anyway!

Someone has poorly drawn a line in at the bottom which doesn't meet the two vertical lines or make a neat frame....

The reason for this is because when these were repro'd the name of the original maker had to be removed from the copy lables so there is a piece missing at the bottom of the label. Hence the poor freehand cover up.

I wonder if the ones on these sites are reproductions, as well? They all have the same "cut off" labels on the boxes.

http://www.luikerwaal.com/newframe_uk.h ... ma3_uk.htm

http://billdouglas.ex.ac.uk/eve/results.asp?item=69373

http://ludology.org/index.php?topic=articles&page=8

http://www.mcu.es/cine/MC/FE/Servicios/ ... inema.html

I'd like to see more examples before I render a verdict as to its authenticity.

As for condition, this was the sort of novelty item that would give a child--or adult--minutes of enjoyment. (Even in the 1920s.)

Along this line, an improper setup would probably have sent the thing flying off the turntable and right into the lamp, or china cabinet.

And, of course, all those fingerprints from children clutching the sides of the Victrola while standing on chairs to peek into the playing compartment. ("Junior! I just got done polishing that!!!")

It probably wasn't long before the whole thing was put back in the box and out of harm's way, where it sat for decades.

STEVE · by **STEVE** » Sun Jul 22, 2007 6:46 pm

JoeDS

I couldn't get all of the above links to work but of the ones i did, i would say, yes, they're all repro. Of course, not everybody will already know that they've got a repro one if asked so tread carefully!

You only have to look at the number that have "survived" too. THese toys weren't that poplular for the reasons you've already said but an amazing number exist in perfect condition. You wonder if some may be good due to lack of use and for being stored away etc, but I've yet to see anything 80 plus years old which was once white in colour, survive without considerable yellowing and dust staining. irrespective of storage conditions.

The same applies to other gram toys such as the Tango Two's and Rastus & Boxers. These have again been near perfectly repro'd about 20-25 years ago? Some of these have turned up slightlly rusted on Ebay and have been sold / bought as originals by unsuspecting buyers.

by **Joe_DS** » Sun Jul 22, 2007 7:38 pm

Hi Steve:

Interesting. I tried the links and noticed that http://ludology.org/index.php?topic=articles&page=8 isn't working at this time.

I did spot what looks like rust or corrosion on one of the "driving wheels" of the one posted by jakub76, but I guess that could probably be faked, as could the rust on the staples holding the box together, the edge wear on the box, itself, the slight yellow tinge to the picture discs, and the discoloration/wear of some of the slats in the "viewing disc. " (My monitor is set for 1024x768 -- 32 bit/highest color -- resolution.)

As you note, there are a number of fakes and/or reproductions out there. If you ever come across a photo of one you know to be authentic, please post it! I'd love to eventually build up a reference library on this site--perhaps under its own topic section-- which would not only provide helpful hints and historical data, but descriptions and photos of authentic as well as fake gramophones and related items.

STEVE · by **STEVE** » Sun Jul 22, 2007 8:26 pm

JoeDS

Ironically, it is easy to fake yellowing paper items etc as I know from making new Lumiere diaphragms (French type weren't gold lacquered) which are left as plain paper without colouring / coating.

I have seen some genuine toys and you'll see how different the boxes look for a start. Regarding rusty staples etc, don't be so easily fooled. I recently spotted a box with rusty staples which was actually brand new. The stapl;es had been dabbed with some sodium nitrate dissolved in water and applied with a brush. The obvious indicator was the way the staple hadn't stained the box which was beautifully clean but there were marks left by the brush on the box!

Honest reproductions are fine when there is a market for an item and people are sold the truth. What makes me really annoyed though is the plethora of fake items available in this field and the way dishonest dealers / sellers attempt to pass them off as original items. The Crapophone is the most obvious longest running problem we have. There is one on Ebay at the present with a strat price of

jakub76 · by **jakub76** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 12:17 pm

I have just spotted this item with the identical picture I posted for sale on ebay...
http://cgi.ebay.com/GREAT-ZOETROPE-KINEPHONE-GRAMOPHONE-MOVIE-DEVICE-MIB_W0QQitemZ280135744955QQihZ018QQcategoryZ38027QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
I wonder how much it'll go for...$200 ?

STEVE · by **STEVE** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 12:33 pm

It's already way too much money but some unsuspecting person will no doubt pay even more for it than that believing it to be a 20's item. They are welcome to it!

It is a fake or reproduction if you prefer the politer description. How the seller can believe it is 80 plus years old beats me? They even suggest that it is near mint - well there's a surprise!