Buyer beware! There is a FAKE tinfoil machine being auctioned on ebay. Somebody is about to be very disappointed.
The auction link
http://cgi.ebay.com/TINFOIL-PHONOGRAPH_ ... 638Q2em122
Information about the real maker
http://sonoraman.proboards107.com/index ... hread=9088
FAKE tinfoil on ebay!
Q&A about Talking Machines from the pre-electronic era (approx. 1885-1928).
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Joe_DS
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Thanks for posting this.
When looking over an ad like this, it's hard to pinpoint exactly where the fraudulent claims are. As noted in the post on the OTVMMB, the seller never claims that it's an authentic (period) tinfoil phonograph, other than the fact that he refers to it as an "attic find." (I guess it could have been sitting in an attic for ten or 20 years.)
Along this line, I noted that the phonograph differs substantially from the photographs of the one made by Goodwin Ive, but as "TinfoilPhono" notes, other parts were used in the construction.
For me, the major issue is whether the seller actually has this in his possession, since as Dan Gilmore pointed out, the photos, themselves, were lifted from another auction website, where the phonograph had, purportedly, been sold. (The additional photo the seller posted proves nothing, since it could have been hosted on the internet, but not used in the earlier auction posting.)
If the eBay seller, himself, had sold the item during that earlier auction, and the sale fell through, then he should state this. (But, if that were the case, then why did he misidentify the phonograph as a dictating machine in the earlier eBay auction, which he, himself, pulled???)
The other "red flag" for me, is the dust and grit all over the phonograph--as if someone had sprinkled the contents of a vacuum cleaner bag all over it to make it look as old as possible. Seems to me, a reputable seller would clean the thing up so people can actually see what they are bidding on!
When looking over an ad like this, it's hard to pinpoint exactly where the fraudulent claims are. As noted in the post on the OTVMMB, the seller never claims that it's an authentic (period) tinfoil phonograph, other than the fact that he refers to it as an "attic find." (I guess it could have been sitting in an attic for ten or 20 years.)
Along this line, I noted that the phonograph differs substantially from the photographs of the one made by Goodwin Ive, but as "TinfoilPhono" notes, other parts were used in the construction.
For me, the major issue is whether the seller actually has this in his possession, since as Dan Gilmore pointed out, the photos, themselves, were lifted from another auction website, where the phonograph had, purportedly, been sold. (The additional photo the seller posted proves nothing, since it could have been hosted on the internet, but not used in the earlier auction posting.)
If the eBay seller, himself, had sold the item during that earlier auction, and the sale fell through, then he should state this. (But, if that were the case, then why did he misidentify the phonograph as a dictating machine in the earlier eBay auction, which he, himself, pulled???)
The other "red flag" for me, is the dust and grit all over the phonograph--as if someone had sprinkled the contents of a vacuum cleaner bag all over it to make it look as old as possible. Seems to me, a reputable seller would clean the thing up so people can actually see what they are bidding on!
Joe_DS
The answer is in your question: "if a reputable seller etc...."
In case there is any doubt here, the seller is Dennis Yates, well-known dealer to the trade and the man who got caught in the theft of the Enigma machine some years ago now. I've heard that he's also had a special escort from Christies Auctioneers saleroom at South Kensington, London on at least one occasion for applying his trade there too. I believe he served some time at Her Majesty's Pleasure for the Enigma episode! Yes, it's that very same Dennis Yates!
He goes by both the names "g.marconi" and "earlywireless" on Ebay. The machine is apparently a total reproduction and you have to ask many questions about the listing. I believe he did actually have the machine to sell (?) but by virtue of it appearing in exactly the same photographs in the previous "sale" you have to wonder what exactly is going on? My GUESS from talking to other collectors is that there is just the one machine which certain people would like other certain people to believe is genuine in order to get a high price for it (without actually claiming what it is) and just maybe some of the correspondence is therefore faked to draw novices into the web of intrigue. Ebay were told about it by a number of collectors but didn't react presumably due to a) lack of supporting evidence and b) lack of time to cross-reference and consult with its own departments.
Anyway, on a more positive note, he does have GENUINE items for sale too! Some of us have acquired good items from Ebay before we learnt who the real person behind the Ebay handle was.
Steve
The answer is in your question: "if a reputable seller etc...."
In case there is any doubt here, the seller is Dennis Yates, well-known dealer to the trade and the man who got caught in the theft of the Enigma machine some years ago now. I've heard that he's also had a special escort from Christies Auctioneers saleroom at South Kensington, London on at least one occasion for applying his trade there too. I believe he served some time at Her Majesty's Pleasure for the Enigma episode! Yes, it's that very same Dennis Yates!
He goes by both the names "g.marconi" and "earlywireless" on Ebay. The machine is apparently a total reproduction and you have to ask many questions about the listing. I believe he did actually have the machine to sell (?) but by virtue of it appearing in exactly the same photographs in the previous "sale" you have to wonder what exactly is going on? My GUESS from talking to other collectors is that there is just the one machine which certain people would like other certain people to believe is genuine in order to get a high price for it (without actually claiming what it is) and just maybe some of the correspondence is therefore faked to draw novices into the web of intrigue. Ebay were told about it by a number of collectors but didn't react presumably due to a) lack of supporting evidence and b) lack of time to cross-reference and consult with its own departments.
Anyway, on a more positive note, he does have GENUINE items for sale too! Some of us have acquired good items from Ebay before we learnt who the real person behind the Ebay handle was.
Steve
I used to be looking for things but now I've found them I don't look at them!
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Joe_DS
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- Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2006 4:23 pm
- Location: San Francisco, California, USA
Hi Steve:
Many thanks for confirming this! About a week ago, an anonymous guest had posted information regarding who the probable seller was, but since this was only speculation at the time, the post was removed.
Now that it's confirmed, it's important to spread the word to other collectors.
JDS
Many thanks for confirming this! About a week ago, an anonymous guest had posted information regarding who the probable seller was, but since this was only speculation at the time, the post was removed.
Now that it's confirmed, it's important to spread the word to other collectors.
JDS
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