Phonoland

Brooks, the method Wurlitzer used was a bit goofy. When a coin is deposited it doesn't fall straight through to the coin box. It is held just at a point where it emerges from the validator. When the motor starts a sensing lever swings over to where that coin is held and stops. the other end of that lever engages a series of shoulder screws on a black metal wheel with a gear around it. The position of the screw that was engaged determines the number of credits for that coin. The gear is what gradually resets the wheel as the motor turns.

Other than using the same motor, there is no relationship between the credit and selection process.

It was a LOT simpler than what Seeburg used, but consequentially, not as flexible.

I'm writing this from long ago memory and some of it may be confused with the 'grinder" they used in the older jukeboxes, but the concept is the same. It is based on the position of the coin laterally in the validator.

I bought 7 of those boxes in 1986 -all with beautiful chrome and considered using them, but after finding no easy way to change pricing to quarter-play and no accumulating I decided to gradually sell them with machines that went to homes.

Rob

I'm surprised I'm having issues figuring this out since goofy is in my sweet spot!

Thanks Rob, that's actually very helpful. While I knew the brass 'lever' was the thing that was tripped by the coin and, in turn, tripped the microswitch, for the life of me, I could not figure out what the black metal fork-shaped piece was and how it worked. It moves in a couple of dimensions and ultimately has a piece with a pin on it that prevents the selector wheels from turning. If I manually manipulate it I can turn the selector wheel to get it into a position where the selection keys are not locked out. Press a couple of buttons, maybe turn the wheel a tad and viola, the motor starts to turn, the pulses register on the jukebox and success. I need to spend some time figuring out what the movement should be on that forked piece. Since I'm not able to get the motor to start even when I jump the microswitch, there is no credit accumulation. I' gotta believe the electrical for that is pretty basic so hopefully, I'll be able to trace it and see if I have a bad wire or cold solder issue. Do you know if there is a way to set it on free play?

Thanks
Brooks

Leaving the whole coin issue aside (I actually am thinking I can rig it up for free play pretty easily), I have an issue with the selection. Letters work fine, numbers do not 1 initiates 7, 2 >8, 3>9 and everything else initiates 0. It seems to me to be one of two things. 1) the letter contact 'wiper;' for numbers in the wallbox is misaligned and needs to be adjusted so that one aligns with one. OR, the number disc in the stepper unit does not reset back to the 1 position but is gummed up and only resets to 7 so that any more than 3 pulses from the wallbox merely keeps it at the far end (0).
Thoughts on which is the more likely issue and/or other ideas before I attack either one?

Thanks
Brooks

Brooks, I think you are right about the stepper being the culprit. Turn off power and carefully advance each stepper wheel a few steps. If the wiper wheel is held by a screw in the front center -that is what I use. At any point it should snap back to home.

If it does not, first check for a black gummy tarnish on the silver rivets of the wafer and remove any that you find. Apply a light coating of silicone lube to the rivets and a drop or two of light machine oil to the stepper bearing at each wheel

this is a common problem.

Regarding the wallboxes you can test for proper pulses by connecting a 28 volt bulb between the LowAC and signal terminal.

I did free-play the boxes that i sold with machines...but can't remember what I did. It was a combination of jumping the microswitch and holding back a lever. I still have a couple of 104 boxes for my 1800...somewhere.

Rob

Man I swear ain't nothing easy. I figured I would start by checking the stepper, clean everything, check the leaf switches, etc. In order to do a thorough job, I needed to remove it. No problem, right? Well as I was disconnecting the plugs that attach underneath the changer mechanism, I reached up and accidently nudged the spring that runs on the circumference of the 20 tabs that select the letter. And once nudged, it fell underneath those tabs. It's hard enough to try to reset what you can reach from the back, but the front is impossible. I've learned that the entire mechanism can't be removed without removing the cowl over the turntable, so I wanted to avoid that. I removed the table springs so I could slide the mechanism back enough to get my hand into position. After 90 minutes of wrestling and cussing, I finally got the spring back on. So, typical jukebox activity...what should have taken five minutes, took 90. And, of course, I verified that the issue isn't the stepper....the wallbox is pulsing too much.

So at least the problem is isolated, sort of. I'm not sure where the issue is and welcome thoughts/ideas. The way the switch bank works is that when a button is pressed, every button is activated below that one. In other words, if I press 5, buttons 1-5 are active. If I press 8, buttons 1-8 are active. This makes sense to me since the wiper only rotates once so if I press 5 and 1-5 are active, there would be 5 pulses. Alas, I am getting additional pulses making me think that some of the tabs on the bakelike are active. For example, if contacts 6-0 were always on, then pressing 1 would result in 7 pulses, pressing 2, 8; 3-9; and everything else would get all 10 pulses. There does not appear to be an easy/straightforward way to get to those contacts to check for shorts. Any thoughts and ideas on this? The only idea I have is to use my 'switch insulator (it's a strip of a manilla folder with electrical tape on it that I can insert in a leaf switch to ensure it stays off and is very useful for diagnosing problems on pinball machines). I figure if I can position it over the 6-0 contacts, I may be able to confirm the problem is a short going to the bakelight disc.

Hey Brooks,
Iffin it twere EZ, twind'nt be no fun !!
Since I have never sen the insides of that wall box, this is just a thought --
If it's built like a Seeburg, and uses a rotary wiper/disc assembly, you might check the tension on the wiper. They tend to 'bounce", which is why Seeburg used a 2050 tube to control the step-up--Ron Rich

I am completely flummoxed by this one. Letter selection works perfectly, 100%, never a miss. Number selection is a crap shoot. Yesterday, I thought I had it figured out. 1-4 selected fine; however, 5 - 0 were one behind (i.e., 5 played 4, 6 played 5, etc.). So it has to be an issue with contact 5 not registering, should be easy to track down to bad wire, cold solder joint, bad contact. I had an errand to run, so I came back to the wallbox several hours later to begin tracking down the issue at contact 5. I fired it up to reconfirm the issue and now, press any number and it will play either that number or the one higher or lower (e.g. pressing 5 plays 4 or 5 or 6). If there were a pattern, I think I could diagnose and localize. Could it be an issue with the timing relay in the stepper? Although, I would think that would still present a consistent issue. If it were occasionally firing early, then sometimes it would select correctly and sometimes it would select the preceding number. But how would it select that later number?
Thoughts?
Thanks
Brooks

Hi Brooks,
I have no experience with WurliTzer steppers, but tons of it on Seeburgs--If I had this symptom, on the 'Burg, I would look carefully at the disc and rotor alignment--also might be a loose rotor on the shaft ?? Ron Rich

I've looked at the rotor multiple times. On the wallbox, the same rotor is used for both the letter and number selection. There are 20 contacts for the letters and 10 for the numbers. The rotor hits the letters first, then continues around to get the numbers. The fact that the letters work makes me think the issue is somewhere else. Here is some more info and a question. While observing the stepper coils after selection, the coil seems to step up in a regular rhythm on the letters. On the numbers it will sometimes get an irregular pattern with a blast towards the end. So letters are rata-tat, rata-tat, rata-tat... number coil is rata-tat, rata-tat, rata-tat-tat-tata. (Feel like the guy trying to explain the sound his engine makes)
Anyhow, after studying the manual some more, there are additional relays on the underside of the stepper box that control timing and transfer as well as some capacitors. From the manual "the 500 Mfd capacitor provides additional current, beyond the letter release relay, to maintain holding of that relay until the set-up action of the number stepping unit has been accomplished" Could it be an issue with a flaky capacitor? I mean they are only 59 years young.

I am completely flummoxed by this one. Letter selection works perfectly, 100%, never a miss. Number selection is a crap shoot. Yesterday, I thought I had it figured out. 1-4 selected fine; however, 5 - 0 were one behind (i.e., 5 played 4, 6 played 5, etc.). So it has to be an issue with contact 5 not registering, should be easy to track down to bad wire, cold solder joint, bad contact.

Brooks, you are getting ahead of yourself here...A broken wire to one of the contacts on the wallbox wafer will cause a gap in the train which in-turn causes the stepper to:

1 )If in the latter train it will allow the transfer relay to fall out putting the rest of the latter pulses on the number wheel.

2) If in the number train it will trigger --two- attempts at write-in. One will be at the fault gap and another immediately afterward as the remainder of the pulses come in.

I don't think either of these are involved here.

If you have not done-so already, connect a 28 volt bulb between the AC input to the wallbox and the signal terminal (disconnect that wire to teh jukebox. make selections and observe pulses. they go fast but you should be able to see the letter and number trains with a pause in between. If you see an extra-long pause in the number train, that will indicate possibly a broken wire. I doubt that because it occasionally adds a number to the count.


After making sure the wallbox is generating correct pulses we are looking at the stepper.

First, are the contacts on the transfer relay making good contact? That relay lives in the out position and that blade will eventually bend slightly upwards and lose point pressure.

As i mentioned in an earlier post, does the number wheel -always- return to home? If not, it will add to the count.
Next, try slipping a small piece of paper between the clapper on the number stepper and its magnet (armature) coil. If there is residual magnetism it will cause the clapper not to release quickly enough and miss the next downstroke.

On top of each clapper is a toggle that actually advances the stepper. It must be free and not gummy. Similarly, there is a ratchet "dog" on each stepper that holds them in place as they are advanced. these must be free and just loose enough to respond quickly. Failure in either of these loses pulses. Once again I'll risk being a "Gepetto" -a drop or two of WD40 on either the ratchets, if gummy, will loosen them.

It is possible that one of the springs in either the tail or clapper are weak. I have had that several times on the Seeburg steppers. This will cause lost advances.

There are electrical problems that can cause this sort of thing, but if one series (letter or number) are working

Rob

i

From the manual "the 500 Mfd capacitor provides additional current, beyond the letter release relay, to maintain holding of that relay until the set-up action of the number stepping unit has been accomplished" Could it be an issue with a flaky capacitor? I mean they are only 59 years young.

That cap holds the "butterfly" magnet that keeps the wheels from resetting till write-in is accomplished. Unless that magnet is chattering and releasing before the pin is punched, the cap is passable. If you have one of equal or greater value on-hand....?

Rob

Thanks Rob...no capacitors laying around. I don't have a 28V bulb, so I was working around that. The stepper seems to be operating very smoothly, advances, resets back to home, etc. Looks like I need to bite the bullet and get a bulb so that I can localize the issue to the wallbox or the stepper. Thanks again for your help
Brooks

Brooks, if you have a continuity meter of some sort, disconnect the wallbox, connect the meter between the common and signal terminals on the wallbox and manually turn the motor gear so that the wiper passes over each contact. Look for a low resistance reading at each.

A-1 =Least pulses.

V-0 =Most pulses.

Rob

Brooks,
You should also be able to check the wallbox, as Rob states above, with the power ON---just disconnect the signal line to the jukebox and battery powered "continuity lamp" . Just connect the lamp between sig. and common ground (earth), make selections and watch the lamp-. Ron Rich

I may test the limits for max characters on a posting, but here goes.
Using my DMM to check pulses, I discovered that I could only test it manually. If I powered it on, the pulses were too hard to differentiate. However, I could make a selection and then turn the shaft through it's sequence slowly enough to count the pulses. The pulses for letters had a pattern that made no sense (remember now, letters worked perfectly). On the other hand, the numbers were spot on...select 7, 7 beeps on the numeric side of the swipe. Occasionally, the last tab would pulse, but that was the exception. Further, I discovered if I manually advanced it to the start of the cycle, powered it on and made a selection, it always selected properly. If left powered on, one could not engage the buttons, but a slight push on the reset bar allowed button selection and when this occurred, the right number rarely was selected. So turn off, manually move the cams through a full cycle. Turn on, make selection, perfect (with the exception that it would sometimes make two selections). Turn off, manually move through one cycle, perfect again. Keep on, can't make a selection or selection wrong 70% of the time.

Resolution: Beat's the hell out of me. However, I did a number of things and it is now working fine. Here is what I did. 1) disconnect the spring to the ratchet lever that increments the 'credit' counter. 2) Remove the coin mechs 3) jumpered the microswitch for coin registration 4) put a dowel to restrict the movement of the coin arm so it did not snap back to the start position. Now all of these are related to setting up for free play; although technically, 1 and 2 do not need to be done.

The other things I did, which I think are the real root cause of the problem were. The selection mechs fit into a little rack. The top and bottom of the rack have a sheet of what looks like black paper affixed with a black adhesive. I assume this is an insulating material to prevent the selection button contacts from shorting on the rack. The pin for the hinge on the selection reset lever looked like it had worn through a small area, and, in fact, the paper was no longer adhered to the rack. So, I replaced this with electrical tape. This seemed to eliminate the sporadic extra pulse. The second thing is that the motor turns the rotor with the swiper. The swiper disc has two posts, one is substantial, maybe 1/8", the other is a tiny roll pin, less than 1/32". The cam shaft has a similar tiny roll pin going through the middle and extending about 3/16". This pin is supposed to be positioned between the two posts on the swiper to turn the shaft and cams resulting in the mechanical actions. On one of the many times I was inspecting the swiper , I noticed that the little roll pin was not parallel to the more substantial post. It splayed out. So I took my needle nose pliers and carefully bent it to be vertical and parallel to the other post. I also put a bit more bend in the swiper arms to increase contact.

Viola!, everything works so far (more testing to do) Now, I suspect there may have been a variety of things at play, from a random short to the slightly bent roll pin. I doubt the presence of the coin mechs or the removal of the spring had anything to do with it; however, ask me if I am going to replace them? No way!

Knowing what I know now, I would start with the swiper roll pin and putting tape on the coin rack.
As always, thanks to all for your help. Now if I can just figure out how to mount this thing on a wall!