Rockola 442 Latch Bar & A-Side Play

I've just restarted this project. A week ago, nothing worked. Now it's coming along, but (at least) two issues have me stumped. On the write-in side, as soon as the juke is powered up, the latch bar solenoid pulls in. It doesn't buzz, just pulls in and stays in. Pressing the rest button or the ADR in the credit unit will let it relax momentarily. I have all the contact points cleaned and checked all the connections. Write-it and read-out slip rings and contacts are clean. This model predates the selection control board, so I've not been able to figure out why this is always energized. No buttons are stuck, and all the button latched appear to work smoothly. It will not select like this, so I've not seen any response from the write-in motor.
The other issue is on the readout side. Flipping any lever activates the wobble plate switch and starts the mechanism. That switch and contacts are clean. B side selections work just fine, and the 442 will play and return the record. But the A side selected will cause the readout to spin until I stop it. It will not fire at the selected pin and it will not stop at home. I measured resistance across both coils at about 51 ohms and good continuity to the wipers.
Any help will be appreciated.
Patrick

Hi Patrick,
I have a small problem in recalling RockOla functions by model numbers--Is this an alpha/numeric, or a digital version, keyboard ?
On the failure to play an A side--you will need to follow the schematic--wiring diagram, back, from the sensor, to the point that separates one side from the other--could be an open wire/connector, or the AB switch contact---Ron Rich

Hi Ron the Rock Ola 442 is a 1970 jukebox with Alpha Numic keyboard.

Regards
Alan

Alan Hood
ami-man
UK

Ron: it's a letter-number combination (Like J5). Letter and number buttons are mechanical and are in three groups in a straight line with the reset button on the left end. The reset button is a normally-closed switch wired right from the credit switch.
Patrick

Patrick,
OK--like I said, I do not know RockOlas that well, but it would seem that all is well to the point it should "start" a selection. If that's the case, I would look for a set of switches operated by the letters, and a set operated by the numbers. If this was a Seeburg, it would have two sets of two switches, one set on both the numbers, and letters. They would operate the subtract (ADR ?) coil in the pricing unit--see the schematic--
Ron Rich

Ron: I have the wiring diagram and I'll study it over this next week. I'll have to admit I'm weak at reading these. This older model has the sequence-by-sequence steps spelled out in the service manual. In the first sequence, when credits are established, two credit switches close, one lighting the "singles" lamp and the other "energizes" the lock bar solenoid. This is a double leaf switch in the credit unit. By "energize" they don't mean that the lock bar solenoid should be pulled in whenever credit is established, do they? I don't think it should pull in until selection buttons are pressed, then release when the write-in coil hammers the pin. That sound right?
Patrick

Hi Patrick,
I am not 100 % sure-but I believe that those keyboards were designed a 1500 Dayton street, and yes, if that's true, the latch bar (or "lock bar") solenoid was energized whenever a credit was established !
I had a couple of opportunities to speak with Mr. Rockola and I recall axking him why there were so many "similarities" between Seeburg and RockOla phonographs--He made the (kidding, of course) remark that they "shared design engineers, as they were so expensive---". I countered with something like "industrial spy's ?" --he shot right back saying no--he and JP were good friends, who shared good ideas.
Ron Rich

Ron Rich wrote:Hi Patrick,
I had a couple of opportunities to speak with Mr. Rockola and I recall axking him why there were so many "similarities" between Seeburg and RockOla phonographs--He made the (kidding, of course) remark that they "shared design engineers, as they were so expensive---". I countered with something like "industrial spy's ?" --he shot right back saying no--he and JP were good friends, who shared good ideas.
Ron Rich

In cabinet styles, yeah, but much closer to to AMI mechanically. So close that I'm surprised they were able to avoid violating AMI patents.

Rob

Hi Rob,
If speaking of about the record playing mechanism--you have a great point !--Since this was a "selection system" question in my mind, I was thinking about the "pinbank" style, selection system, when I wrote that--
Ron Rich

One down, part of one to go! The no A-side play was cased by gummed and jammed up parts where the reversing dog rides the inside hub of the magazine. I watched the wheel turn and found the A/B snap switch never opened. All the linkage was frozen. With the motor removed, I could get to the dog and liberally soak it in 20-weight oil until it freely operated spinning the basket by hand. Reassembled, the 442 now plays both A & B sides.
As for the lock bar solenoid, it looks like it's supposed to be pulled in whenever there are credits, like Ron said. I thought that would burn it up, but it doesn't get warm in this condition. This is different from the sequence of operation in later 70's Rockolas, where the lock bar doesn't pull in until the second (of three) numbers is selected and I've never seen one quite like this one operate.
After reworking the connections to the write-in motor, the selector buttons (two) pulled in and started the write-in motor. Cool. The rest of the write-in operation doesn't work. Yet. The motor is extremely sluggish and it did not find a pin to hammer. The slip rings are clean, but I've not pulled any of the write-in parts off. But that'll give me something to do next time.
Patrick

Hi Patrick,
I thought it might be found at the AB switch--glad you got it--
I ASSUME that if left energized for "hours", that solenoid would also burn up--don't know, but maybe they used a better quality solenoid then Seeburg did ??
On the write-in motor, I strongly suggest that you don't even think about dis-assembly. I have had rotten luck in re-assembling them and aligning them-If anyone knows the "trick", PLEASE post it !! I just squirt 20 wt. in them now--takes awhile, but does work !
As for the slip rings--the ONLY thing I have found that works for me, is a cleaning with a "Plastic safe--safety solvent", followed by a coating of Deoxit-5, as directed on the can--Ron Rich

Hi
In my dealings with rockolas the write in motor rarely fails so as Ron said lubricate. If a pin is not hammered check to make sure all the contact blades are present on the write in arm and the wiring is ok, also clean the blade contact points. It is common enough to find a write in arm where some of the blades have broken off
clones

Thank you, Clones & Ron. I've never had a write-in motor off but rest assured I won't take it apart! If the write-in arm moves freely on the shaft with the motor off, I'll work on the contacts right there and check the coils. I've oiled all available places already along the shaft. Now if it needs to come off I guess that means removing the pinbank, right? Hopefully it won't come to that. I've already followed these instructions for cleaning the rings.
Patrick

Hi Patrick,
No--pin bank need not be removed to remove the WI motor--while you have it off, see if you can find any oil holes near the armature shaft--some have them, others don't, but I THINK they are all packed with felt, so dribble oii in, if possible---Ron Rich

Ron: I meant, if the pin bank has to come off to get to the write-in arm. I'll remove that motor and find how it's oiled.
Coolest thing on this machine, the turntable motor has oil funnels right up front for top and bottom oiling. I'll look for oil holes in the writ-in motor once it's off. Also" this was my first time repairing the wobble plate switch. It works fine if I pop a pin manually, but is its adjustment critical?
Patrick