Number of cranks

Can someone tell me what the typical number of cranks or procedure is to wind up a 1918 4 spring brunswick. Thanks.

Hi John:

It varies--I've noticed this even with models (made by the same manufacturer) equipped with similar or identical type motors . For example, I had a Consolette, which was fitted with Victor's two spring motor, that required about 30 turns of the crank to play one side of one ten-inch record. My Victor 4-40, which is fitted with an identical type motor, only takes about 20 turns of the crank. (For both machines, a full winding was about 50-60 turns.)

I'd suggest that you slowly turn the crank, counting the number of turns, and when the tension starts to build up, try playing a record. If it slows down before the end of the record, add a few more turns, until you get to the right number.

I don't know what condition your phonograph is in--whether the motor has been cleaned and overhauled--but if you hear any bumping noises while winding the springs, or as the record plays, it's time to clean and re-grease the springs. Along this line, most of the owners manuals I've read recommend a full winding, which good-condition springs should certainly be able to handle. BTW, the manuals also recommend that you let the springs unwind fully when the machine is not in operation, which is a good idea because it minimizes the chances of grease displacement in the spring coils, as well as wear and tear on the gears, themselves, caused by directional pressure.

FYI, a number of owners manuals are listed on this site. (Just click on the thumbnail images to make them full size for viewing/printing.) -- http://nipperhead.com/old/ephemera.htm


HTH,
Joe_DS

Thanks for the info. That link did not work for the manuals. I noticed a couple of things about my machine. 1. when I crank it way up, it speeds up 2. when I put the arm down the drag causes the record to slow way down. I have tried adusting the speed lever and weight to lighten up the arm, neither help. Any advice?

JOHNFIN wrote:Thanks for the info. That link did not work for the manuals. I noticed a couple of things about my machine. 1. when I crank it way up, it speeds up 2. when I put the arm down the drag causes the record to slow way down. I have tried adjusting the speed lever and weight to lighten up the arm, neither help. Any advice?

Hi John,

I just tried the link and it seemed to work okay.

The direct jump to the Ultona Manual is -- http://nipperhead.com/old/brult.htm (If you cannot call it up, I'll copy and paste the images in a follow on post.)

As for the turntable slowing down, if the spring seems to be wound--say 20 to 30 turns--it could one of the following:

-- The Ultona reproducer may be positioned in the incorrect position--for playing vertical, as opposed to lateral (standard 78) recordings, or the counter-weight may be set improperly. (See Ultona instructions.)

-- The needle is worn. If you use a steel needle, it is best to use it only once--to play one side of one record. More than that is asking for trouble.

-- The record is of the wrong period to be played on an acoustic phonograph. Later 78s, especially those from the mid-to-late 1940s through the 1950s should not be played on acoustic phonographs.

-- The sound box is frozen. For any antique phonograph, it's advisable to overhaul the sound box -- or reproducer -- with fresh, soft rubber gaskets. If they are hard, they will restrict the movement of the diaphragm, and the needle will not be able to track the record groove correctly, causing wear, drag, etc.

-- The record may be of the correct vintage, but is too play-worn to track properly, even with a fresh needle, and good-condition sound box.

-- The motor may need a good cleaning and lubrication. If you have not inspected the motor, now may be the time.

-- (Along this line,) the springs, themselves, may be stressed or shot and need replacement.

A good source for troubleshooting (and fixing) problems with spring-wound phonographs/gramophones is "The Compleat Talking Machine," by Eric Reiss. (That's the way "complete" is spelled in the title, btw.) This book is really a must for any novice, as well as advanced collector. You can hunt down a copy by doing a Google title search. It's available through most well-stocked book sellers.


HTH
Joe-DS

Hi John,
I take it you've instaled the new springs you bought, & everything was cleaned & lubed?
If so, and you're using a new needle & a record in good condition, I'd say the governor may need adjusting. If the worm gear on the governor is set off centre to the fiber cog it may be binding a little, or if the governor is too tight or too loose in it's bearings it can also cause a motor to slow down once you start to play a record.
It shouldn't hurt with 2 new springs to wind the motor up completely, and see if it will play a full side. I wind my machines about 1 revolution of the handle every second, and I slow that down a little when I feel the spring is getting tight. I let the motor run while winding it, and after a couple goes you get used to feeling the resistance against your winding & can stop a few turns short of fully winding the springs.
If the record still slows with a fully wound motor, you'll have to pull the motor down again.
Let the motor run down completely, then turn the turntable spindle by hand to make sure the springs have no tention left in them The spring barrels should rock back & forth freely a little if there's no tention left in the springs. Then remove the spring barrels, and re-assemble the motor without them. You should be able to then turn the spindle in the same direction as when it's playing, and the governor should continue to spin for 10 or 15 seconds after you let go of the spindle. If it doesn't you might have to adjust the governor bearings.
If the holes drilled in the bearings are dead centre, then you loosen off the set screws that hold them & move the governor & bearings back & forth until you find the best position for the worm gear to run smoothly on the fiber gear, and tighten the set screws again.
If the holes in the bearings are drilled off centre, it can be little harder to adjust because not only do you get lateral movement of the worm gear on the fiber gear, but by turning the bearings it will bring the worm gear in & out from the fiber gear on all sorts of crazy angles. Then it's a matter of a lot of playing around to find the best position for the governor. Just make sure there is very slight lateral movement of the governor in the bearings. If they are too tight it will not spin freely, and if there's too much movement the worn gear will move along the fibre gear under pressure & they will bind.
Once you think you've found the best position for the governor, put the barrels back & see if it works better.
If not, there may be damage or wear to the gears somewhere, or any one of the bearings may be worn.