1966 seeburg tonearm swap, set drift and tonearm wire routing

I swapped out the red tonearm in my 66 SS160 Seeburg. The wire at the cartridge connector had broken. I replaced it with a "Blue" colored Arm from a later model. Seems to be very similar but with better damping action. I should have taken better photographs beforehand. I now have sound from both channels but the Arm does not drift inwards on the record. It sits in one groove and skips repeatedly. It will move in by hand but does need light pressure to do so. I remember the red one sort of just fell inwards if you engaged play without a record in the slot. So I have a couple of questions and items I have already checked.

I checked Rons Mech guide and the Service manual.

With the old Red Arm every thing worked except the sound from the Left channel and no damping action.
The pivot point for the drift function I dabbed oil on both, no change in freedom of motion.
The weight on the bottom of the tonearm does not effect the ability to drift easier in either end of the adjustment.

I may have routed the wires differently than from the factory. The go down though the pivoting mount that the tone arm sits in this may be the cause of the binding of the drifting. I can fix this without pulling the assembly. Would this be the cause? Any other possibilities?

Hi,
Thanks for purchasing the Mechanism Guide !
When you changed this arm, did you tighten the screw that holds the tone arm in VERY tight ? If not, you should have, as it must put some pressure on the cradle assembly ( which relieves some pressure on the pivots). Also, it appears from the photo, that the routing is incorrect--it should loop under the whole tone arm--allow enough of a "loop" to clear the weight . The "spring holder", looks odd--it should be held against the tone arm-- Did you check tone arm pressure, and balance adjustments, as per the Service Manual ?
Ron Rich

Does the wiring route through the cradle assembly?

I haven't really adjusted the springs yet, I only got them in place and discovered that the tone arm wouldn't drift. So still need to set it.

Looking at it , as per your photo--
The wire exits the top of the tone arm, down the RH side, held there by a screw, and a bit of fish-paper, then thru the hole below the screw, out the side of the tone arm, straight down below the weight, and is looped back up on the outside, right, of the moving (shifts, L-R) cradle frame.
Wire MUST BE "free", and VERY flexible. Ron Rich

Ramblinman, Make sure that the needle bearing setscrew shown here:
http://s1192.photobucket.com/user/Rob-N ... rt=2&o=120 -is -not- tight. It must only be close enough to center the needle in the cup, but the arm must be totally free.

The --only-- proper routing for the PU wire is on the outside of the inner frame existing at the notch and held with a paper strain relief (missing in the pic):
http://s1192.photobucket.com/user/Rob-N ... rt=2&o=121

As Ron mentions, it should form a "U" shaped loop and clear the bottom counterweight. It should also be strain relieved at the point where it connects with the terminal strip to avoid breaks from repeated A-B shifts.
As for damping...sigh..I have total contempt for it on any modern arm. I eliminate it on all my machines in commercial service. Ron and I will disagree on this till out last breaths

Rob-NYC

Ok, Im not sure which setting is the needle bearing set screw in that photo. I'll recheck what I did perhaps pull the assembly again.

I was going to replace the styluses. any recommendation on a supplier? I went ebay last time, they work ok. I don't mind paying abit more for better sound quality I've started buying more expensive new pressings and like to keep them going.

Rob- How many 45rpm jukes do you have in commercial service? I'd thought CD's and Digital Jukes would have won over in a commercial setting by long ago.

The tonearm wiring needed replacing so I figured why not replace the whole arm with one that had dampening. The plastic connector the cartrige snaps into was loose and frail. The new arm seems to be better balanced.

Hi Rambling--
Rob is speaking of the "pivot" adjustment--which somehow, never made it into any service manual, as far as I know--
I "learnet" it from the very nice, "little old lady", at the factory, (LONG story !) who did the "final adjustments, and check" on the tone arm assembly. Once you are sure the screw holding the tonearm in is tight, the pivot should have a minimal amount of "play" in it. You should be able to feel a very small "movement" of the pin, inside the bearing--also, before re-adjusting, oil both bearings, with a drop of 20 wt. oil !
RonRich

On the top pic, follow the right hand spring. below the middle of that spring you see a nut around a setscrew. That is the needle bearing.

I have 9 Seeburg wallbox installations and 2 Rowe WRA-B-C systems. The seeburgs are in retro locations and I'm pretty much stuck as they are a major part of the decor and experience.

Styli are going to be a problem. I'm still using original Pickering stock that i bought from them in 1998 but that will be gone by later this year. I don't care for the copy versions and had intended to cut away plastic from the DAT -V400 series styli (Stanton) if they are still available now that the company has been sold. The DJ version (N400) -may- have similar output to the original type that Seeburg used. I've experimented with the home versions of Pickering styli (NPAC and DAT) they all are about 7db lower output then the original. In most machines I have out, the preamps were redesigned and built by me and I can dial up just enough gain to use the replacement styli and still have normal AGC action. On the Seeburg TSA-SHP amps it requires a bit more work to get additional gain.

All-in-all, more work, more cost for less income.

Rob

Ok set screw and wire loop adjustment solved it. Plays pretty good now.I Adjusted the pick up location inwards since it was landing beyond the record too. Thanks Rob and Ron for your help!

Rob- Are you in new york? Id be interested in checking out one of the nostalgia locations you mentioned.

Would used non worn out needles be a better option? I think I have the set that came with the box. By the look of the records it may have been last used in 1998 or 99. I read they can be cleaned with good results.

Rob-NYC wrote: The DJ version (N400) -may- have similar output to the original type that Seeburg used.
Rob

The reason the Stanton N400 styli have a substantially "hotter" output is because they used a high-powered Neodymium magnet in them, as compared with the NPAC, DAT, XV15, and other "standard" cartridge styli designed with the traditional "Alnico" magnets which are weaker.
When they were available, I stocked up for myself on the N400's, along with the cartridges they were used in.

The reason the Stanton N400 styli have a substantially "hotter" output is because they used a high-powered Neodymium magnet in them, as compared with the NPAC, DAT, XV15, and other "standard" cartridge styli designed with the traditional "Alnico" magnets which are weaker.

That is interesting. I'd wondered if the magnetic properties were different since there isn't much visual difference in the cantilevers.

Rob

Rob-NYC wrote:

The reason the Stanton N400 styli have a substantially "hotter" output is because they used a high-powered Neodymium magnet in them, as compared with the NPAC, DAT, XV15, and other "standard" cartridge styli designed with the traditional "Alnico" magnets which are weaker.

That is interesting. I'd wondered if the magnetic properties were different since there isn't much visual difference in the cantilevers.

Rob

The tiny magnetic "chip" inside the support tube is the same size whether it's Alnico or Neo, but the Neo is 2+ times more powerful.
Thus, a higher "flux" and magnetic "disturbance" is induced in the surrounding coils, resulting in more output.