Seeburg V

I just brought home a Seeburg V. It probably has been sitting idle many, many years. Since I've always wanted a V it is a keeper. I am slowly taking it apart for restoration and getting together a list of major things it needs.

The V was equipped with a TSR1-L6 Tormat Selection receiver. This machine has that unit but unfortunately it has been modified. The tube sockets for the 6X4 and the Three 2D21's are gone. Three of the socket holes have cartridge fuses and the fourth has a Female RCA plug in it. There is a small relay planted where the pulse amp used to live AUGH! Perhaps a smart person could return it to what is shown in the schematics but I am not sure I could. I am not so good dealing with an extensive modification as this that are completely without any documentation.

I do have a spare, decent looking TSR3-L6 (VL, I believe). I am hoping I can sub this in place of the modified selection receiver or am I already in big trouble? I realize the machines remaining Tormat components may have other modifications but I might (hope) be able to deal with those. This TSR3-L6 is missing the Pulse Amp. I have an extra; I wonder if they are interchangeable?

This machine was purchased on Ebay, apparently as a working machine for thousands according to the owner. My wife (boss) believes he said $6,000 but I am sure he said $4,000. Regardless what a shame. He filled it with all new reproduction records that never got played. The mech cover was on a shelf. I could not possibly be used since it was distorted terribly. It looks like a huge twisted tortilla chip (no salsa needed for this one). I can only imagine someone left a high wattage incandescent trouble light on it overnight. Thanks Everyone!

Juke46 (Geritol Ghetto)

Hi David,
NO problem !! In fact, the TSR-3, is the "better" of the two--a small amount of re-wiring of the mech ( which someone MAY have done with that "conversion" ?) and you should be "good to go" . The re-wire, is covered in some of the Service Manual copies--if not in yours, PM me for a copy. Ron Rich

I believe you posted about this machine on the Jukebox list.
Before trying to connect a (rebuilt) TSR-3 you should check the mechanism and keyboard connections against these schematic's pin numbers.

http://s1192.photobucket.com/user/Rob-N ... ort=2&o=59 Write-In

http://s1192.photobucket.com/user/Rob-N ... ort=2&o=58 Readout

http://s1192.photobucket.com/user/Rob-N ... ort=2&o=76 Trip

The most important being the impedance of the trip coil at 250 ohms connected on pins 5&6 of J5.

The original credit unit needs slight modification by adding 1 wire and, IIRC changing the plug.

If no parts external to the modded TSR have been changed, about the only parts you'll need are a small 100 milliHenry choke and terminal strip to mount it right above the detent switch and another plug for the credit unit to mate the TSr-3.

I assume you tried to get service data from RJB restorations on the existing modded TSR-1 as I believe this is who did that conversion.

Rob/NYC

Thank You Ron and Rob! I got lots to check! I did ask about the V on the jukebox list. Something, these days, seems to prevent me from getting about 90% of posts there. I feel bad if someone posted there and I cannot even thank them because I haven't seen it. I'll see what I have in my Seeburg manuals for the modifications. I do have a huge Seeburg factory service manual.

I do remember RJB Restorations. I had heard years ago they were no longer doing jukeboxes but I see they are. I thought they were out of Chicago for some reason. We bought some parts or something from them years ago. I think they were at the Pasadena Fun Fair shows. I shall contact them and see if they have any information/schematics for the modified TSR1. I have a Seeburg 201 they had modified (according to the people who worked on it). It was in a local 5 And Diner. No one could fix it because no one understood all the modifications to the selection system. It had a powerful solid state amp too. When I became the owner I knew if these guys could not fix it I sure wasn't going to be able to. I replaced all the back door electronics with refurbished standard equipment. It hasn't missed a beat since. The cosmetics of their restoration were beautiful.

I will contact them, perhaps they have a schematic for the modifications to the TSR1 and anything else.. Thanks Again!!

David (Geritol Ghetto)

David, I forgot to ask if the scan assembly is there under the right side of the mech deck.
I never saw an RJB mod of a V-VL (only the 201) but have read that they eliminated the scan unit and replaced it with a timing module. If the scan unit is not there ...we have a problem in re-converting to original. Not an insoluble one...but a problem.

I was told that that company used a TOA PA amp stuffed into cabinet of the 201's they did fo that retro diner chain. Those amps did have RIAA mag inputs cards available and the mic presidence bus could easily be used for muting but there was no AGC.

The TOA amps are excellent sound-wise, but like a lot of Asian equipment they cut a corner or two. the two here are the anti-thump relays. These connect the output tran and un-mute the mixer bus. But they are cheap, soldered-in consumer grade and develop resistance after about a decade of use even though they are just turned on and off once per day. Sometimes you get sound, sometimes you have to switch off-on to jog them. I just remove them but it requires removing the amp from a rack and then pretty complete dissassembly.

Rob

Rob,

I can see what appears to be the scan assembly under the mech deck. It is difficult to see because the mech is still in the cabinet. I have to enlist someone other "old" guy like me to help get it out. We live in a retirement community of us oldies. I can see it has the wiring and a plug as well.

I gave the Seeburg 201 solid state PA amp thing to one of the jukebox guys here in Phoenix when I completed the 201 with original parts. I've never regretted returning the 201 to an original condition.

On the Seeburg V, perhaps I should give that modified TSR1 a chance. I have not plugged the machine in. The amp and TSR have some old and some new caps in them so I had planned to completely re-cap whatever equipment I used before testing. Maybe I will try to revise a factory schematic with the modifications. My electronic skills are not too good.

A friend has a VL mechanism. I have considered trying to purchase it and using it with the TSR3.

I did email and get a nice response from RJB. It sounds as if the mechanism has been modified for a TSR3 already. Here is what they had to say:

"David,
Yes - we used to do the Fun Fair and many other shows. Today, the only show left is Chicago. I moved to the LA area in 2002.

It sounds like one of my modifications for commercial service. Unfortunately, I don't have the schematics anymore, but could fix it if you wanted to send the receiver to me. The mechanism would have been re-wired for a TSR3. The modifications are for silicon diodes and a zener to replace the 6X4/0A2 tubes and a silicon controlled rectifier circuit to replace the 12AX7 and trip 2D21. The other 2D21s are replaced with RC timing circuits. It made for an ultra-reliable system.
Typical problems remaining are wires falling off the tormat pickup, oil on the detent switch, broken wires in the main cable."

Why not fire it up -so to speak.

I suggest removing the 5U4 tube from the amp or just remove them amp altogether for preliminary tests.

Then, remove the mech cover. The reason here is to make sure that a fault in the selection receiver doesn't cause the trip solenoid to remain energized. Check for this at the scan coil too.

IF you keep an eye, ear and nose on things it should be safe to do some basic tests and see if the modded TSr-1 will serve.

There is really no good reason to replace the mech to convert to a TSR-3. The mech work is doable in under 5 minutes -once you understand what is involved.

Rob

Rob,
Thank You! I will give it a test run. I had my wife pull the mech but she can put it back in! Just kidding! WOW! I would have a big lump on the head. I do have the drum out but I do not see any reason it needs to be there. I'll give the fuses/wiring a look first and leave the amp out. I think this might be a good candidate for a dim bulb tester on start up. The cabinet, like most I've had doesn't roll very well, so I want to get on that problem too.
David (Geritol Ghetto)

Since I had the Mech out (they have really gotten a lot heavier these days) I decided to fix the cabinet casters before returning it to the machine. The wheels were a mess but now it rolls along real well, not as good as a skateboard but good. The wheels were original but the original sockets must have been broken so there were replacement sockets, light duty ones. All finished now, so back to the rest of the machine.
David (Geritol Ghetto)

Since The Seeburg V now rolls around nice I've just been pushing it around in the garage and all over the place. Well, actually I re-installed the "modified" TSR1 Selection receiver. I first checked the fuses (all four of them), it has the original plus three others added in some of the tube sockets. Unfortunately only one fuse was a 5 amp. The others were 6 amp to 20 amp. I did find two diodes installed as part of the modification. I changed to lower amperage fuses for the unknowns and changed to a 5 amp for the factory installed fuse holder. I used a dim bulb tester to see if there was any dead shorts but nothing at all. I will do some more checking; I may have missed something stupid! I'll check around but I think I am leaning towards using the "nice appearing" TSR3 I have (after re-capping etc.). I now have the information so I can now check/verify if the mech has been already modified for a TSR3. I am more of a "change the capacitors, clean the connections and tube sockets, look at the resistors for over-heating, new cord, etc. guy. I don't deal too well with modified stuff and especially without a schematic.

I most sincerely thank everyone for their assistance so far!

David

Ahh! The Seeburg V! I followed Rob's advice and "fired it up" (so to speak). I did have some help from a friend who is much smarter than I. We had a few problems but finally got it going and it appears to SELECT! With this success we stuck the amplifier in and put an old record in the rack. The mechanism had trouble centering the record. Inspection of the record clamp showed the centering pin was missing. Actually it was broken off and stuck in the flywheel. I did get it out so I removed a clamp from an old Seeburg C mech but have not installed it yet.

With a bit of help, to clamp the record properly, it played it played well with great volume and tone. The amp has had some capacitors changed. I imagine it would be wise for me to at least change the rest. I would like to change the rest of the capacitors in that "working" TSR1 but without any documentation I am a big chicken.

The C mech clamp is a lot different from the broken one I removed from the V we are working on. The taper portion is very short; not too much more than a shoulder. The C mech clamp has a much longer taper to help center the record. The pin seems to fit the flywheel perfectly. I am unsure what the broken one (no part number) came from but my manual indicates the 245 073 clamp is correct for the V mech. I always though all the 45 RPM mechs used the same clamp but I've never had a broken one before. How the heck can it break that pin and leave it in the flywheel?

I want to thank Ron and Rob for their help! I really appreciate it.

David

Hi David,
I have seen a few bent clamp arm pins, but never saw one stuck, and broken off ??
I don't have the C manual handy, but the B manual calls for a 245071 disc ? So, I ASSUME some change was made ? (did they paint the clamp disc on those models ?? --I don't recall--but if so, that would account for the changed number--
Ron Rich

Neither clamp disc is painted. I'll install the 245073 on the mechanism and operate a couple of cycles by hand for correct record centering and release prior to operating it very carefully. I'll read over that great mechanism book that Ron Rich wrote too for any needed adjustments to the clamping cycle with a new clamp disc.

The red head Pickering cartridge really sounds good. I had a few of those redheads; this one is almost translucent. I've never had one like it before. It does seem like somewhere someone made mention of a cartridge like that.

Thanks for all the help!!

David (Geritol Ghetto)

Hi David,
Thanks for the "plug" ( your check's in the mail, BTW), but my Seeburg Mechanism Guide does not cover the clamp arm adjustment, as it was printed in detail, in every factory Service Manual. I attempted to cover what the factory did not. Ron Rich