Oil type

What type of oil is recommended for players. The oil that came out of the oil pan of my brunswick looked like automobile engine oil. I would think sewing machine oil would be good.

I use singer sewing machine oil on my motors, and graphite grease in the spring barrels. Most guys recommend using lithium grease. You can also make your own graphite grease the same as they used back in the day, by mixing vasoline & powdered graphite. I'm not sure of the ratio they used though.

shane wrote:...You can also make your own graphite grease the same as they used back in the day, by mixing vasoline & powdered graphite....

Years ago I was lectured by an old time collector (who's now about 100, if he's still among the quick) that powered graphite should not be used for a mainspring lubricant. He insisted that "flaked" graphite was what was originally used, and that powered graphite will "clump together" in the barrels when mixed with Vaseline over time, and not adhere properly to the spring coils. Since that time, others have mentioned this.

I don't know if all of this is true, or not, but I have seen the flaked graphite recommended and sold by a number of repair shops; for instance, http://www.antiquephono.com/motoroil.htm

As for oil, I've also used Singer sewing machine oil, too, and it seems to work fine, but there are some that are supposedly formulated to repel dust (as noted in the above link).

Lubrication engineering is my favorite hobby. I grew in the subject when I was a teen in the US Navy,
when I picked up a text book on the topic and got engrossed in the science.

this is a rough draft mini-article composted in post, and it will contain typos and minor gaffes:

Yes, you can make your own graphite grease by mixing powdered or flake graphite into any kind of grease.
Because the graphite will thicken the grease, and because traditional graphite greases are high in graphite content, like 30% by weight,
it is best to use a light bodied grease. Now, Vaseline (petroleum jelly) is really not the best lubricant, but it will serve.
All petroleum products such as petroleum jelly and oils eventually thicken, oxidize, age in bad ways.

Today we have a plethora of synthetic lubricants, and all these are more oily than any natural petroleum oil,
just as bacon grease (never use that) is greasier than petroleum grease.

We don't use animal fats for lubrication today because, while they ARE more oily than petroleum products, animal fats break down into corrosive
acidic components, and eat metal.

Of the vegetable oils, canola oil is a very fine, light-bodied oil, and castor oil is likewise useful as a thicker oil. HOWEVER, vegetable oils
age even less well than petroleum oils when exposed to the air. They won't corrode metal, but they will gum because they all have some tendency to dry,
like linseed oil, which is the most agressively drying of the common veggie oils.

We can note by simple tests what is most oily by rubbing the oil between fingertips.

I've used synthetic oils for decades with good results, various kinds, they all resist age gumming or thickening very well.
3-in-1 Oil is fine, but know that it is a petroleum oil with some aromatic content; it's great for freeing up gummed oil oil,
but itself, will gum in time. Plus, it is not as oily as, say, a light bodied synthetic.

TRI-FLOW is a light synthetic oil we may use safely in place of 3-in1, available pretty much everywhere.
For heavier oil, I favor synthetic motor oil.

Primer: What is grease? Vaseline is not grease. Vaseline is amorphous wax.
Grease is thickened oil; oil thickened usually by incorporation of a metallic soap.
There are various metals which are saponified (made into soaps). Lithium, calcium, sodium, aluminum, etc.
These soaps are not really like soap you wash hands with, no; they are more or less insoluble in water.
However, the soap base of a grease determines in large degree the working properties of the grease.
It is the OIL in a grease that lubricates proper, not the soap-base itself, though the two components work together to an extent.

Perhaps the main desideratum of a grease or oil for our phonographs and other old machines of the like, is age resistance.
Quality petroleum greases and oils contain anti-oxidants which slow the thickening, drying process.
ANY purpose-made oil or grease you choose today will last longer (before gumming) than what they used in the olden days,
3-in-1 may be an exception: it is an antique product, a staple for over a century, and I doubt it has been goosed by modern engineers from its original formula,
but I do not really know.

I prefer synthetics, in general, because they are so time stable and so very slippery. In phonographs, all the lubrication effect comes by what is called
boundary lubrication. In boundary lubrication, oiliness is the great aim, but too, petroleum oils perform fine, other than aging less well than synthetic oils,
and petroleum oil prevents wear just fine, as attested to by the condition of most old talking machines.

Hi Reid:

Many thanks for the comprehensive information!

JDS

I just love the smell of old oil/grease that you find on opening up a cabinet...nothing quite like it!!

What is the secret to regreasing the main spring in a Victrola? I have been using gear oil and a vaseline type product purchased from the Antique Phonograph Supply Co. out of New York.

I am a newbie at this, so forgive my ignorance on this subject. My attempts to oil the motor seem to make it play/sound better.

THANKS!,
Bob

(J.M.J.)

While I have been using sewing machine oil on my gramaphones and phonographs, with seemingly satisfactory results, it has recently come to my attentiopn that one should be using clock oil, for posterity benefits, as there is very little build up of residue with clock oil of the highest quality ( very expensive ) over many decades of un-use, as could occur in the future, in comparison to sewing machine oil of the highest quality.

Robert561 wrote:What is the secret to regreasing the main spring in a Victrola? I have been using gear oil and a vaseline type product purchased from the Antique Phonograph Supply Co. out of New York.

I am a newbie at this, so forgive my ignorance on this subject. My attempts to oil the motor seem to make it play/sound better.

THANKS!,
Bob

Hi Bob:

Many collector's I've known have insisted that in order to properly re-grease a spring motor, it's essential to clean every spec of the old grease off the coils by removing them, uncoiling them, and wiping the surface with a good quality grease remover. Others claim that this is not really necessary; that a good soaking of the barrel in a grease solvent such as kerosene (or even gasoline) overnight will remove all of the grease and other dirt from the coils and inside the barrel, itself.

There are a number of shops that will not only clean the springs, but the entire motor by disassembling it, immersing the components in an ultrasonic bath, and then inspecting and burnish any worn parts before re-assembling it. I had this done to the motor of an HMV 102 portable I owned at one time. (Unfortunately, though the shop purported to know what it was doing, and came highly recommended, the results weren't worth the price I paid for the overhaul. For instance, when the shop reassembled the motor, they positioned a "cone-shaped" washer, holding the mainspring's spindle in the proper position, upside-down. In addition, some screws which held the governor's flat springs in place weren't tightened properly and came loose over time. If that wasn't enough, the spring, itself, started bumping and banging after a few months, and I had to add more grease to the coil.)

If you are a do-it-yourselfer, and a newbie, your best bet would be to buy a copy of "The Compleat Talking Machine," by Eric Reiss. That's the way "complete" is spelled in the book's title, btw. You can find this at most well stocked booksellers such as Amazon.com. The book is an excellent guide and provides illustrated, step-by-step instructions for most repairs.

HTH,
Joe_DS

Joe,
Thank you for the information. It is very helpful to me in deciding where to send the motor for cleaning. Have you had any dealings with APSCO for repairs? I understand this Company has a good reputation.

The machine I believe may need overhauling is my VV-XVI circa 1913. When I wind it I hear a slight "thud", but, it plays nicely without any further thuds or thumps.

THANKS again for the feedback

Bob

Have you had any dealings with APSCO for repairs? I understand this Company has a good reputation.

I sent a VV-80 double-spring barrel to them for repair, but that was about 25 years ago. They were still working out of Floral Park at the time.

I remember, Dennis replaced both springs, and the motor worked okay for about six months, or so. After that, the springs started bumping when winding, and I had to apply more grease periodically. While I was initially disappointed, I've found that this seems to be a common problem with Victor double-spring barrels. In fact, of the six or seven spring barrels I've sent out for repair to various shops, over the past three decades, in no case has the grease held up for longer than about a year.

I remember that I complained about this to a long time collector once. He accused me of winding my Victrolas too fast, but when he came to visit, and watched while I wound the motors, he conceded that I was doing it correctly.

Currently, the only Victrola I have is a VV-4-40 Orthophonic model. In this case, I cleaned and re-greased the springs myself, but I still have to add a little grease to the barrel about once every year or two.

In any event, based on my dealings over the years with APSCO, for parts, etc., I would definitely recommend them.

Joe,
Thank you for the feedback. I will check with them about the motor rebuild.
Bob