Problem with DS160 number selection

Hi all I have one last problem that I cannot figure out on my seeburg ds160, no selection with 8 will work all other selections work. Here are a few things I have done and I am not to sure where to go from here

1. Rebuild the TSU
2. I did the AA battery test to set all the toroid's selected and this worked, every selection played without a hitch (Perfect)
3. Clean the TES

I have tested continuity on the number selector and I am sure it is good, here is how I tested it. I got out my multimeter and set it to buzz, then I put one wire on the common wire on the number switches and then I put the other wire from the multimeter to the J551plug coming out of the TSU where the tormat would plug into then I press the number eight button the multimeter buzzes so I know I have a complete path?

Any help would be appreciated

Thanks
Brad

Brad, here is the simplified Write-in for a TSR-3 but the circuit is the same for the somewhat later unit that you have.

http://s1192.photobucket.com/user/Rob-N ... ort=2&o=59

With power off, open the E & D link. Connect meter to the D screw -the other to chassis ground. Press any letter and number together. You should have a low resistance path to ground on all combinations. It is common for these old Jones plugs to have significant resistance on them. The system uses high W-I voltage to compensate for this..to a degree, but beyond a few hundred ohms selection becomes erratic.

Rob/NYC

Hi Brad,
99% of the time, that problem is in the Cinch-Jones plugs ! (Deoxit works well here ) If good thru the plug, look for a broken wire going to the TMU -- if not the solder joint on one of the plugs, it's usually at the point where it comes thru the cabinet shelf and passes the mech "slide" (this happens due to failure of either the retaining clamps,or "people" failing to reinstall them correctly !) Ron Rich

Thanks guys I will check both avenues, I will hopefully get time to look at it tonight and report back any findings.

Thanks Again
Brad

Rob & Ron

So I had a little time to get a look at this, I have continuity from the TES number eight down through the plug into the TSU1 J552 pin 28 and again out the TSU from plug J551 so I am sure there wire is good. But when I do the test suggested by Rob with removing the E & D link every selection other than ones with the 8 read on the multimeter anything with 8 does nothing. So unless I am testing the continuity wrong on the TES I have to assume the problem lies in the TSU I spent about a half our with a bright light and found no cold solder joints but I had to quit an hour is all I can stand before my eyes start to go cross eyed!!

Thanks
Brad

Stan,
Did you check continuity from the #8 key thru to the top (un-covered) side of the Cinch/Jones plug ?
If so, and it's good--problem "hasta be" either the wire going into the TMU, or the wire inside of it ?--REAL,Real, RARE !!!
Ron Rich

Ron,
Yes I Checked Continuity from #8 thru the Cinch/Jones plug and its good I also plugged that back in and check the outgoing plug J551 that goes to the Tormat Memory Unit so it is good from #8 thru Cinch/Jones and out J551 to the tormat memory unit.

Does doing the AA battery to set all the toriod's use the same wires going into the TMU as I have done that and all the records played without fail

Thanks
Brad

Brad, the battery test just flips all the toroids using the pulse sensing loop. This test is only to determine if the machine is capable of reading out and tripping.

if I read your remarks correctly, you have continuity from Pin #28 (the 8 loop) to Pin #31(where it emerges to reenter the letter section). If so it is possible that the blades inside the female chassis socket on that pin is broken. I have seen this on another, non-jukebox Jones plug but it should (thankfully) be rare.

Rob

Rob,
I have continuity from Pin #28 (the 8 Loop) to Pin #32 (Common for all numbers) I did not test Pin #31, also the #8 failed the test connecting to the D link and Chassis ground all other number/letter selections read on the meter.

Brad

Brad,
I'z conrfuzzed ?? Which "Cinch-Jones Plug" are you checking ?? There are 4 of the beasts--check all the way thru them--If good, ASSUMING the TES button is good, my bet is that the problem is in the cable, as I said earlier, or inside the TMU itself--Ron Rich

Ron,
The confusion makes two of us , I am new to the Phono side of things so forgive my ignorance. I was assuming the “Cinch-Jones Plugs” are the big square plugs with the “Cinch” clips on the side if that is correct I only have two one from the TES and one going to the Tormat.

The one coming from the TES is P361, I tested that at the end of the plug on pin #28 (the 8 loop) and pin #32 ( the common wire on the TES “Selector switch-numbers”) and I have continuity.

I have also tested the same path but with P361 (TES) plugged into the TSU what I did there was remove the Plug going to the Tormat and connect my multimeter to the outgoing side of the TSU and I had continuity there also.

Thanks
Brad

So I plan on opening the TMU, is there anything I need to look out for nothing is spring loaded and wont go flying out

Brad, before you open the TMU, did you remove the -male- Jones plug and test from Pins 28 and the common (on my diagram) pin 31.

If opening the TMU it is critical not to flex the innards as you remove the cover. The wires inside are delicate and there is no slack to allow for flexing. I remove the screws at each end, then, IIRC the plastic end caps slide directly out. Removing the cover is the tricky part since it was press-fit and never intended to be opened.

I slide a wide metal blade (1 or 2 inches) along taking care not to allow it to tilt inward as there are soldered wires right near the edges. you will need to slide the blade along and add a keeper or two to prevent the cover from snapping back.

Once it is sprung from end-to-end the cover is tilted and swung away to reveal the insides.

--Be very careful not to allow the edge of the cover to damage the wires as it is removed.

I've only had to open four tormat units (160 and 200). These were damaged due to a-holes using them as handles to lift the mechs. Multiple connection were broken in each. A lot of tiny, tedious soldering and some wire replacement. There is nothing special about the loop wires, anything tiny enough and insulated will work. Often there was just a break at an "elbow" and i just carefully scraped the doping off and placed a dab of solder to bridge the gap.

To replace the cover I bend one end slightly wider and add some silicone grease to the inner edges and a little to the tormat plastic so as to allow me to carefully slide the cover back on. this is safer than trying to snap is back over the top in reverse of how it was removed. On the big units (200's) i slightly widened the whole cover, key word is -sligltly- .

Go slow, use common sense.

Good luck.

Rob

Brad,
Do as I, and now, Rob have said--remove the large, black cover on the Jones plug. Check that wire very carefully there. I have seen a number of them "broken", right there--I suspect that when stripped, they nicked the wire, and it finally just gave way. Also, as I said before--check that TMU wire as it comes up from the TSU. It MUST be dressed so it fits into the little "cut-out", on the mechanism shelf, that is visible with the trap door closed. Once thru the cut-out, it must be fastened to the shelf, with a clamp, then dressed so it goes behind the support post that it should be clamped to. I have seen way to many that were not properly "dressed", and therefore have been cut by the mechanism as it scans in that area.
As for "opening the TMU"--best advise is "Don't"--as it is very easy to cause damage, and / or destroy---
I open them a little differently ( had to open at least 500 once, due to a known intermittent defect).
I remove both of the 1/4 inch hex head screws ( MAY be #2 Phillips, on yours {?} ) from the wired end. Cut the seal (there goes the 5 year guarantee !). Then remove the two, furthermost, small Phillips, from the other end, grounding plate. The cover will now "slip off" by pulling on the mounting bracket--pull evenly !! As for re-installing it--I always just "slud it" on--but I like the grease idea--Ron Rich

Rob/Ron
Thanks, I finally understand what you are trying to tell me I should have time tonight or tomorrow and will let you know. I appreciate all your guys help this far!!

Thanks
Brad