Wanted HMV 202 Internal Horn

First of all.
Have a heart!
Not everybody is so lucky to own an HMV202 complete and working.
I am only giving this collector a chance to own something as good sounding as a real HMV 202.
He will never find an original horn, you know that!
You wanted to make a record cabinet out of it...how does that sound.

I owned both a complete HMV202 and HMV203 and sold them because they do not even come close to the emg oversize.
And Last.I was very happy with my real EMG soundbox that I won on ebay.de
I am very happy I outbid you on the emginn...and I will do it again with pleasure.

I'd just like to add that my suggestion of using a smaller horn was not intended to try & deceive anyone, but purely to make the machine operational. Naturally it won't be a "true" 202, but it's not a 202 with no horn at all either. At least with some sort of ortho horn, the machine can be used and enjoyed.
Then if a 202 horn does turn up, it can be replaced, and made back into a "real" 202.
I'm not saying I agree with the deal between Bert & his Korean friend, but that's really between them, and Bert's the one who has to sleep at night
I'm actually glad Bert made this admission, as I myself would never have thought to check the horn if I was ever to find another one. I can't help but wonder if perhaps the reason Korean/Japanese collectors now feel the horn through the grille cloth, is that word got around that someone changed the horn & never told the buyer.
Anyway, if it was me, I'd put a smaller horn in the cabinet to make the machine usable, rather than have it sit in silence, waiting for a horn that may never come. As long as the cabinet is not altered, and if it's sold the buyer is aware of the replacement horn, I can't see the harm in it.

Shane

You are, of course, right in what you say but my point was entirely directed at Bert's little indiscretion and not anything you've said - he claimed to have fabricated a 202 and sold it for 15000 Euros to some unsuspecting Korean! That's downright dishonest and as low as you can go (if it's true) or plain stupid, silliness getting mixed up with bravura if the story (like the machine) is entirely fabricated. I don't know and don't really want to know which one is the truth to be quite honest.

I'm lucky I won't be dealing with this Bert again (once was enough for me) but it's now common knowledge that one should check anything rigorously before handing over your money. I think I'd be inclined to even WEIGH stuff Bert sells just in case the core of the cabinet is repro' too!

No worries, Bert, if I REALLY wanted that Junior I'd have got it anyway. I have others to look at and that's partly the problem......too much choice at the same time.

How many days will you keep this one?

Steve

Shane,
I can not up load any pictures.
I am a little shocked by the comments of the guy who ripped off a Korean buyer by selling him a 202 with a different horn fitted.
It certainly isn't the way I would ever do business, it has really made me think about future deals and being extremely careful and maybe checking things out a hell of a lot more before I buy anything.
I am like Shane and I would love to complete this machine and if I found a smaller horn that would do in the mean time I would buy it but it would never be an original 202. At least it would give me some real enjoyment.
All the best, Tony

Tony

I'm glad I'm not the only one who took offence at Bert's remarks. Yes, by all means, make your "202" into a working machine again if you can by any means available to you but if you were to ever sell it, I trust (like myself) you would explain in detail to any future buyer exactly what it was they were buying.
When i said that I wasn't in favour of cannibalised machines I really mean that I do not think it is generally worth buying parts or empty cabinet machines as they are rarely if ever capable of being 100% satisfactorily restored which leaves you with a "bitsa" machine which is unlikely to ever be completely satisfying to anyone. I've been doing this for 17 years now and I really believe that a machine is either 100% correct or it isn't. Plain and simple, no compromises. That is why I don't like made-up machines. There are exceptions though with REAL rarities but as long as everybody is "straight" and honest about everything there is no problem.

Another thing too.....you SHOULD be very cautious when buying anything today, even from some of the most "reputable" specialist dealers. There are many cautionary tales to be found and read right here on this site and others. That is another reason for being against bitsa machines as some unscrupulous people will expolit your lack of knowledge and try to sell you a made-up machine as being "completely correct and original".

BTW that cabinet Shane is referring to DID NOT HAVE A GRILLE fretwork or cloth. The only reason to buy a 202 cabinet would be to improve an existing complete 202 with a badly damaged cabinet. You only have to look at the price evidence: a complete 202 is still £5-7000 but a good empty cabinet will struggle to find £250! If a 202 could be very easily and correctly put back together, the cabinet would either be more expensive or the machine would be much cheaper?

Steve

First of all, Steve, Shane; I agree totally with you. I'm for full disclosure whenever any modifications have been made to a gramophone/phonograph, whether it pertains to the finish, motor, sound box, or horn, etc.

For those machines I've sold, I've typed everything I did, and handed the list to the prospective buyer prior to transacting the sale. For instance, when I sold my HMV102 portable a few years ago, I made a small list that noted that:

. the record holder was missing.
. the original #16 sound box had been replaced with a #5b sound box
. the sound box's original diaphragm had been replaced with a new old stock one, originally intended for the #5a sound box
. the fabric covering had been patched on the left side of the lid
. the entire fabric covering had then been given a liberal coating of black shoe polish to blend everything in
. the motor had been overhauled and the broken mainspring spring replaced

The buyer still agreed to my price -- $185.00. I advised him to hang onto the slip of paper I gave him, to keep as part of the gramophone's history. (He said he would.)

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Bert wrote:

"I am only giving this collector a chance to own something as good sounding as a real HMV 202."

Interesting. I know that the original HMV 202 horn is about eight or more feet in length, compared to the six foot metal horn Victor produced for the VV 8-9 and the VV-8-35--the same horn was used for both models.

Unlike the HMV re-entrant horns, which used the same specs provided by Western Electric for the (flagship) Credenza's tone chamber--wherein the "heart" containing the four divisions was centered (horizontally) in the middle of the horn--Victor's metal horn positioned the heart at a lower position that angled upwards. (This, I understand, was done to increase the overall length of the 8-9/8-35's smaller--square--tone chamber to match the length of the all-wooden, larger, retaculangar chamber used for the Credenza.)

In any event, I would imagine that the square shaped mouth of the 8-9/8-35 metal horn would probably fill the 202/203's empty horn chamber, side to side, but would be about two+ feet shorter, top to bottom. This would mandate about a two-foot extension, if the horn sat at the bottom of the chamber. By adding a two-foot conduit extended from the base of the tone arm, the length of the overall tone chamber would be increased. This would probably enhance the bass performance, somewhat, compared to what it would sound like without the extension. Because of the fact that the horn's exponential taper rate had been modified, though, the sound quality would be impacted, probabaly making it more directional.

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Tony wrote:

"I can not up load any pictures."

If these are stored on your home PC--in JPG format, and aren't too large--you can post them in a follow up message by using the "Upload Attachment" feature now available on this board. Simply click on the BROWSE button to find the file, and follow the instructions from there.

I had to measure the "tone chamber" of the 202 at one stage in a discussion on another board, and the horn is 24"w x 31"h x 9'1"L.

Shane

And I think i also asked "on another board" how do you measure the length of a non-linear horn? Do you double-up the lengths where the sound can travel in more than one direction?

Steve

I didn't but that would probably be the best way if it were posible. I just measured through one chamber. If it were measured by adding the single + double then the 4 seperate chambers, I thing you'd end up with a horn the length of a truck