How do I get my Rockola 445 to play small hole 45s?

Hello:

I have a Rockola 445 and the turntable has those red and silver large hole adapter pins which can be pushed down to accommodate a small hole record. Unfortunately, I am only able to push the pins down by hand; once a small hole record is placed on the turntable, there is not enough force exerted by the record to push the pins down. Consequently, the small hole 45 just sits on top of the turntable and is not secured over the centre pin, which means it cannot be safely played. I am able to push the pins down by hand, which looks to start some movement of parts beneath the turntable...but nothing is finalized. The pins pop back up again once the force of my hand is removed.

From what I understand, various Rockola jukeboxes (I assume the 445 included) were able to automatically change from 45 rpm to 33 1/3 rpm when a small hole record was placed on the turntable. I also understand that adjustments could be made to the machine to allow the jukebox to continue to play at 45 rpm, even if a small hole record was selected.

Does anyone know how I can make my jukebox properly play small hole 45s? Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Jeremy

Jeremy,
You are correct--that model was designed to play both speeds--
It's been 30 years or so, so I will attempt to recall what to do--
Lift the turntable out and look at the red plastic--observe how it works--then look at the base plate, you will see "linkage" there that is used to "push up" on the red plastic. At this point--I do not recall if you need to remove the "pushers", or you can just remove the link bar that activates them. Remove a record--select that "slot", and observe what happens--
HTH,
Ron Rich

Ron:

Thanks for the reply. I've taken a look at the base plate and also my service manual (see attached graphic of the turntable assembly). I'm pretty sure it's the Sensor Riveting Assembly that is pushed down on by the red tabs (the "Sensor and Pin Assembly"). Although it appears that the Lifter Bracket Riveting Assembly is also involved. If I push down hard enough on the red tabs (so that the 45 rpm record hub is beneath the turntable) the Lifter Bracket Riveting Assembly seems to lock into place; unfortunately the machine is not able to unlock the assembly by itself and the 45 rpm record hub remains beneath the turntable.

It's pretty hard to see what's going on with the turntable in place, and removing a record/selecting the slot doesn't really do anything to help determine what happens.

I'm really not sure what to remove, and I don't want to remove something that screws up the machine. If the attached graphics help to jog your memory, I'd appreciate any further assistance.

Thanks,

Jeremy

Hi

I think you will probably find that congealed grease is your first enemy here.
I have modified my machine to do exactly that, and is able now to play both large and small holed 45's

The first thing you need to do is remove the turntable from the machine (just lift it off). And check the operation of the red sliding collar underneath.

The slightest of downward pressure to the red fingers on top should cause the entire assembly (including the silver fingers) to collapse into the turntable surface, leaving just the centre spindle proud. You will most likely find that this is gummed up by grease.

You need to dismantle the assembly completely, by removing the spring that is wrapped round the middle, and then removing with solvent all the grease.
BEWARE !!!! There are 3 ball bearings inside the mechanism, they will likely fall out, so best do this over a large container such as a washing up bowl or similar.
Once all the bits are de-greased you can using fresh light grease, reassemble.

Once you have the turntable mechanism nice and free. The centre should collapse freely at the slightest of downward pressure, and sliding the red collar up from underneath should reset the mechanism. Replace the turntable and check it works. At this time however when you play a small holed single it will play at 33 1/3

You can then mod the turntable base plate to fix this and allow 45 RPM playback.

Get the hole select mechanism working properly first however, then worry about the speed.

Once you have the turntable bit working nice and freely, give me another shout, and I will take a photo of my turntable deck showing the lifter mechanism, and what I did to force 45RPM for both hole sizes.



Pete

Pete:

Thanks for the quick reply. I've already cleaned up the red sliding collar/sensor and pin assembly (and yes - experienced the dropping ball bearings!); I'm happy to report that there is no congealed grease to be found. Once the turntable is lifted off, the assembly is extremely easy to push down and up again; minimal pressure exerted causes it to collapse easily, as you have noted, into the turntable surface to expose just the centre spindle.

The resistance I am getting occurs once the turntable is placed back on the turntable bearing. In order to get the sensor and pin assembly to move down beneath the turntable, I really need to exert some pressure and push them down hard by hand; there is not enough pressure exerted by the small-hole record to cause the pins to go down by themselves.

I'm pretty sure the Sensor Riveting Assembly and the Lifter Bracket Riveting Assembly are what's causing the problem for me; if minimal force is required to push the sensor and pin assembly down, I would assume the same minimal pressure is required to cause these systems to engage. Unfortunately, this is not happening.

Any other thoughts?

Jeremy

Jeremy,
Remove the turntable, remove one record from the basket, select that space and observe what is happening. Push the tone arm into the "reject position", and once again, watch it work--there has GOTTA be something that moves to reset the red ring-- think this is done after reject, and the gripper arm is about half way up--don't quite remember--but what ever it is, is probably "gummy" or "bent".
You should also be able to see how the speed change is accomplished, and dis-able that section. Ron Rich

Ron:

I've done what you suggested; removed the turntable, removed a record, made a selection and watched what happened. Unfortunately nothing is happening immediately under the turntable; the only movement is the idler (which you would expect). There is something happening under the turntable mounting plate however - the Bell Crank moves when the tone arm moves into position and also when it rejects. This in turn causes the drive rod to move.

There is nothing happening which should cause the red ring to be reset. Nothing. Dead.

I'm pretty sure the Lifter Bracket Riveting Assembly should be doing something, but alas it is not.

That's a horrible parts breakdown ! It appears that the long (bell crank) type item under items 17/21 should move somehow to push the (item 13) "lifter bracket --assemb." up--and should go down when the red fingers drop-- does that area move, or is it "frozen" ?? Lube it up, make sure nothing is "frozen" --problem has "gotta be" right there ! Ron Rich

Tell me about it!

Further to my last response and your most recent comments, I played around with parts 17/21 - that sliding thing with the long narrow slot. When the tone arm is engaged and the idler spins, I am able to push on the Sensor Riveting Assembly (22) which causes the sliding thing to move forward to the point where the Lifter Bracket Riveting Assembly (13) falls downward. Eureka! This is what causes the red fingers to drop. Unfortunately I have to do it by hand. The record alone will not cause it to happen.

Everything appears to be in place, as per the diagram. There are no add-ons or DIY contraptions present. But something does seem to be causing the resistance...I just can't figure it out. Everything appears to be well-lubed and there is no gunk.

I'm starting to figure out how the damn thing is supposed to work, I just wish it would!
Do you think extra lubrication might help? What should I use?

Hi Jeremy,

Going off your diagram I took a look at
My model 414, looks to be same.

Remove lever #22

That part starts the whole ball rolling to
Change to 33 1/3.

George

A little more detail on my previous post.

With turntable off, start a selection without record
In slot. You should see (13) lifter bracket go down
And then back up after you reject. All this does is reset
Red turntable sensor, the sensor does not push it down.

Try a selection again,(no record, turntable removed),
As gripper arm is almost touching down, use the
Off/operate switch, clicking this off then on as operation
Starts, press (22) sensor riveting assembly with finger,you'll
See that there's a small window of time,(very quick)! Where
This catches in another slot. This starts everything changing
To 33 1/3. If it doesn't catch in that slot, so it can move slightly
The red sensor can't drop. Even when pushed!

It is the red turntable sensor that drops, moving part (22) that moves
Into the slot that causes the change of speed.

Hope that helps

George

Jeremy, the sliding slotted part should start
Sliding forward as gripper is almost on turntable,
Allowing part# (13) to automatically drop down.
It also has a little spring that helps push it down.
If not its not doing this, it has to be linkage underneath.
Part (13) has to drop down for everything else to
Take place.

Sorry, I should have read your post better!

Hi

I will try to take a picture of my turntable this evening. And attach it to this post.

ISTR that I removed everything to do with the speed change system Part 18, 19 and 20 it looks like in the diagram, and replaced a collar Part 25 on the idler swinging arm 24 (this rides along part 18, I think) with a much longer one (from a single speed turntable) you may need to fabricate this if you do not have a suitable collar thus ensuring that the idler remains aligned on the 45RPM part of the motor spindle.

The lifter arm 13 and the parts that are required for it lift and reset the red collar was of course left this is operated by the push rob from the gripper cam 38
(it is the same pushrod which ultimately operates the popularity wheel I think)

However before doing all of this my machine did auto select and play small holed singles at 33 1/3. So there must be another problem which you will need to resolve first.

Pete

George:

Thanks for the replies. I have some follow-up questions/comments to your comments...see below

Raven65 wrote:Remove lever #22

That part starts the whole ball rolling to change to 33 1/3.

I thought lever #22 was what caused the sliding slotted part to move. Does it just engage the change from 45 to 33 1/3 rpm? Will removing part #22 affect the sliding slotted part's movement? At this point, I have to forcefully push part #22 forward to cause the sliding slotted part to move forward and allow part #13 to drop down. The sliding slotted part does not move forward on it's own. I'm wondering if lever #22 is causing the resistance and whether removing it might fix the problem I'm having. But I don't want to remove it and screw something else up....

Raven65 wrote:With turntable off, start a selection without record In slot. You should see (13) lifter bracket go down and then back up after you reject. All this does is reset red turntable sensor, the sensor does not push it down.

Unfortunately part #13 does not move up or down when the record selection process is engaged/rejected. It should - if the sliding slotted part were able to move. When I do it by hand (push the sliding slotted part forward during the record selection process), the #13 lifter bracket does move down. When I move the tone arm (to reject the record), the sliding slotted part does move back, causing part #13 to move back up into position (and therefore, I assume, cause the red sensor to move back up in the turntable). So, on a positive note, something underneath the turntable mounting plate IS causing the sliding slotted part to move and enable the rejection process to cause the red turntable pins to move back up into position; unfortunately, the selection process is not doing what it's supposed to do.

Raven65 wrote:Try a selection again,(no record, turntable removed), as gripper arm is almost touching down, use the off/operate switch, clicking this off then on as operation starts, press (22) sensor riveting assembly with finger,you'll see that there's a small window of time,(very quick)! Where this catches in another slot. This starts everything changing to 33 1/3. If it doesn't catch in that slot, so it can move slightly the red sensor can't drop. Even when pushed!

It is the red turntable sensor that drops, moving part (22) that moves into the slot that causes the change of speed.

I've done this, and it works as you have said. I notice the idler moves up and changes speed (I assume drops to 33 1/3 rpms), so mechanically - this process is intact in my machine.

Raven65 wrote:Jeremy, the sliding slotted part should start sliding forward as gripper is almost on turntable, allowing part #(13) to automatically drop down. It also has a little spring that helps push it down. If not its not doing this, it has to be linkage underneath.

Part (13) has to drop down for everything else to take place.

As I noted above, the sliding slotted part does not move forward by itself; you note that it should start sliding forward as the gripper is almost on the table to allow part #13 to drop down. This does not happen on my machine. Something is creating a resistance; I thought it was part #22. Do you think removing part #22 (as you have suggested) might help this?

As I've noted, the record reject process does cause the sliding slotted part to move backwards and cause part #13 to move upward. So something under the turntable mounting plate is enabling this to occur. Could the same thing under the mounting plate be causing the resistance for the forward motion? Without removing the entire mounting plate, it's really hard to see underneath it and check out what is occuring.

Thoughts?

(P.S. I REALLY appreciate everyone's comments and suggestions; I'm confident my 445 will once again function as it's supposed to)

g0pkh wrote:I will try to take a picture of my turntable this evening. And attach it to this post.

Pete

Thanks Pete...I'd appreciate that. Too bad you couldn't post a video of the turntable off, showing what happens during the selection and rejection process...are videos permitted to be posted on this forum?