seeburg AY 160 phantom selections

Ok I'm clear on V-VL models, but for the later fast scanning machines with offset plunger block this is the first I've ever heard about setting "between two rivets".

So you are saying that if it trips at "A1" it should be detented with the plunger between A1 & C1?

Rob

Rob,
Yassir !! At least that's what the Service Manuals say, and I have always done--
There will be a slight difference from one end of the TMU to the other, that's why the alignment should be done with the carriage in the "center" of the rack. Ron Rich

Ron Rob: Great news the phantom selections are no more Ron= I tested resistance from outer contact of rca plug to center ground strip of TMU---0 ohms resistance from center pin of rca plug to outer contact 3.ohms. will replace 12AX7 monday just to make shure.
Rob+ tried the push up the plunger test several times with the tormat lead in the socket and mech scans with NOT tripping. as a further test i started scanning the mech and removed the rca plug as soon as the groung was disconnected the mech tripped. canceled the selection and let mech scan again inserted rca plug. as soon as center of plug hit inside contact Mech tripped so i guess it is on to why it wont pick up selected reccord. the Detent switch was removed, cleaned, and reinstalled as per page 2462 of the AY 100/160 shop manual. i dont see any flickering of the voltage regulator tubes any aeras to look at here? Again thank you gentlemen for your patience and help Norman

Norman,
Now is the time to re-do the "battery test". I assume it will fail, since you see no flicker in the 0A2's.
However SOME of the newer 0A2's do not flicker ( or flicker so lightly that you need a dark room to see it). If it fails--check voltages in the TSU. Also, when you re-did the detent switch, did you look at the contact points--are they good or were they burned/pitted? Did you check the choke ?
Ron Rich

Ron saved me mentioning the battery test. Now that the machine appears to trip properly we proceed to the next phase.

If you look at the simplified schematic of the readout that I sent you, or you may already have, you will see that there are two resistors in the supply voltage of the readout.

Look for the 56k-ohm and the 36 ohm resistors. These often fail during the life of a machine and will cause a lack of voltage at the plunger block. When they fail the circuit does not draw current at each Tormat rivet and thus the 0A2 do not dim.flicker slightly as the machine scans. A little background here, carbon resistors fail more frequently in pulsed voltage situations than in steady-state ones. The high voltages here add to that factor. In replacing them I use four 220K in parallel for the 56K and whatever is handy to get to around 36 ohms for that one. I generally use one watt resistors.

If your selection receiver has the "G" and "H" test points as shown in the schematic, try using a common neon tester from the bridge between those terminals and chassis. The lamp should glow brightly when the detent contacts are open and go out when they are closed and a plunger is on a Tormat rivet.

Again, just look at the schematic and you will see the failure points. Might as well remove the service switch plug during these tests.

Once the machine passes the battery test, we can move on to the write-in if necessary.

Rob/NYC

Rob,
The factory changed that 56k 2w to a 4 watt wire wound, in later production, and suggested it be changed in all units. Up till last week, I had a supply of them. I now have a supply of 2 watt, 28k's that I am using, as I can no longer find the 4 (or 5)www. I use a 36 ohm,1/2 watt "flame proof" for the "36", and have been doing so for many years--no failures--yet-- Ron Rich

Ron and Rob: again thank you for your patience and help Ron: mech PASSED the battery test. played all 160 selections then went to scan and stopped as it should. contacts on switch look good choke read 6.1 ohms on a digital meter. Rob, checked ALL resistors in tormat chassis,replaced 5 however i can re do the 56K and the 33 or 36 Ohm with 1 watt units will a 5 watt wirewound work in the 56k position and the 33 or 36 ohm position? will get to these this evening. again thanks, Norman

Norman,
OK--getting somewhere now --Read out section is operating as it should----check the 56k--if still in spec, change it later, using either Rob's, or my "combination"--It MUST be at least 2 Watts--more the better !
What now happens when you "make a selection" ?
Ron Rich

I just sent a whole tome on what to do next and it vanished...oh well.

I don't know what credit unit you have and I use a variety of units I modded to work, so Ron will tell you what is right...I hope.

Anyway, if your selection unit has test links as depicted in the write-in schematic I sent, open the E & D link. Connect an ohmmeter to D and the other end to chassis ground.

We are now going to check for the continuity of the keyboard, Jones plugs and the little white "Molex" plug that couples the stepper or blank plate to the main chassis.

Starting at V -hold it down and go through the numbers. You should see a low resistance value at each number. The circuit has considerable tolerance for resistance here because of the regulated high voltage supply, but the resistance must be with a reasonable value -not more than 100 ohms , again less is better.

if there is a stepper there are some contacts there that can kill the W-I pulse.

Rob

Just got back home will start by going over all contacts in the stepper and plugs and go over the resistors. Rob-- the credit unit is the "Single Pricing Unit type SPU1

Rob Tried the ohmeter test d to ground with d to e link open no response from any button.

Norman, using the Readout diagram test terminal D goes first to a contacts on the #2 timing relay (bottom one) that set has three orange wires and the contacts are normally closed. I routinely eliminate these is an effort to reduce contact maintenance on my location machines. For home use just make sure they are closed.

It is really just a matter of finding where you lose continuity for the pulse. It will be easier to work if the keyboard is removed and sitting on some convenient surface while working.

In all cases where I've prepped machines I was the keyboard. For this I use diluted floor stripper 20% and sprinkle a little Ajax cleanser into the contacts and work them while wet. The idea is that the stripper provides the emulsifier and the cleanser gives a mild scouring action w/out endangering the plating on the contacts (if any is left).

You should remove the solenoid and play meter If present. I wash the solenoid as well but I replace it with one already washed and thoroughly dry.

Rinse thoroughly in hot water and dry with a strong blower. I use a dedicated electrolux vac with clean hose and pointed nozzle to concentrate the air.

Then lube the sliding metal surfaces. Here a drop of 20wt oil is Ok

Rob

Thanks Rob will do this tomorrow and let you know.

Gone back to work on this AY 160 Keyboard cleaned the 2 VR tubes replaced and the diode replaced with the 1N4004 as per Ron's sugesstion. still no results With the link between D and E closed, put a scope on D to ground to see if any sign of pulse of voltage going down to keyboard. No results. How much voltage goes thru keyboard to tormat when selection is made. All resistors double checked in Tormat power supply and test OK Thanks for your help Norman

Norman,
Did you check the later circuit on the ES ? Did you check voltages in the TSU ? Did you clean the INSULATED side of the k (Write-in) contact, and check that the "finger" was actually making contact ?
.068 cap good ?? ( I never measured the voltage on a ES)
Ron Rich